Australian Politics Forum - The Problem of Evil

muso

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #120 - Jul 18^th, 2011 at 10:08am

Emma wrote on Jul 17^th, 2011 at 7:08pm:

"Nice. The humilitas in you comes out from time to time. You're not a bad Bible thumper sometimes " - Muso.

This is true Muso -- thank you Yadda - what you wrote was both appropriate , and interesting.
These quotes - from Matthew - the first Book of the New Testament - I see, ... as you have presented them do point towards some answers for me about some various nebulous Ideas I have had about the nature of us. (Phew)
In fact, about the nature of those of us, such as myself, who were raised in a culture dominated by Christianity.

It is interesting - 'cos Jesus (whom by the way I do not deny existed...) says these things in the very first BOOK of the New Testament. According to...Matthew.

So- excellent..

Food for thought!

I just don't accept he was the son of God, obviously, 'cos I don't believe there is God.

I have no doubt that the Bible has some valuable words of wisdom, as do the vast majority of other holy books. Like you, I don't despise religion. In fact, I rather like it.

Watched the final Harry Potter on the weekend:

Quote:

Harry Potter: Is all this real or is it just happening inside my head?

Albus Dumbledore: Of course it is happening in your head, Harry

Wow! even J K Rowling has theology Grin

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muso

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #121 - Jul 18^th, 2011 at 10:23am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 7:46am:

Grey wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 1:07am:

'Evil' is a religious concept. Nobody is born evil as they would have you believe.

Yet some are born with neurological pathologies that manifest as 'evil.

What's the difference between a malfunctioning brain that results in a murder and a malfunctioning piece of machinery that results in somebody getting killed?

Which, if any are evil?

What is the most appropriate action with the malfunctioning brain scenario, and how can we differentiate between a "neural short circuit" and actual evil?

What about a person who has taken drugs at a party out of curiosity, and while under the influence, he commits an 'evil' deed, but when he is no longer under the influence of the drugs, he is appalled by his action? Where does the evil come in? Is it the drugs, the person offering the drugs or the malfunctioning brain?

What about if you have ever been so affected by drugs or alcohol to be no longer accountable for your actions, and in a situation where you could have strangled an innocent bystander because you thought they were a daemon?

Is it evil to get yourself into that kind of situation where you are no longer accountable for your actions?

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« Last Edit: Jul 18^th, 2011 at 10:32am by muso »

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Yadda

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #122 - Jul 18^th, 2011 at 10:29am

muso wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 10:08am:

I have no doubt that the Bible has some valuable words of wisdom, as do the vast majority of other holy books. Like you, I don't despise religion. In fact, I rather like it.

Watched the final Harry Potter on the weekend:

Quote:

Harry Potter: Is all this real or is it just happening inside my head?

Albus Dumbledore: Of course it is happening in your head, Harry

Wow! even J K Rowling has theology

I haven't seen it yet.

Not a high priority. Wink

But your words reminded me of a [good 'psychic'] scene, in a Scfi TV series...

Quote:

RIVER
I know you have questions.

MAL
That would be why I just asked them.

RIVER
But there isn't a lot of time, captain. I need you to trust me.

MAL
Am I dreaming?

RIVER
We all are.

Firefly - Objects in Space
Joss Whedon

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #123 - Jul 18^th, 2011 at 11:09am

muso wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 10:23am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 7:46am:

Grey wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 1:07am:

'Evil' is a religious concept. Nobody is born evil as they would have you believe.

Yet some are born with neurological pathologies that manifest as 'evil.

What's the difference between a malfunctioning brain that results in a murder and a malfunctioning piece of machinery that results in somebody getting killed?

Which, if any are evil?

What is the most appropriate action with the malfunctioning brain scenario, and how can we differentiate between a "neural short circuit" and actual evil?

What about a person who has taken drugs at a party out of curiosity, and while under the influence, he commits an 'evil' deed, but when he is no longer under the influence of the drugs, he is appalled by his action? Where does the evil come in? Is it the drugs, the person offering the drugs or the malfunctioning brain?

What about if you have ever been so affected by drugs or alcohol to be no longer accountable for your actions, and in a situation where you could have strangled an innocent bystander because you thought they were a daemon?

Is it evil to get yourself into that kind of situation where you are no longer accountable for your actions?

IMO, we are [spiritual] 'children', learning something here.

+++

Demons are real.

They are spirits.

And they [many 10's or even 100's] can have an influence over us, especially if we 'open' ourselves to them, if we 'open' ourselves to their 'persuasions'.

I believe that mostly, God [initially at least] protects us from the influence of demons, in this 'reality'.

And i believe that God will actively [spiritually] protect us from the influence of demons, whenever we directly ask him to, and if we are also actively trying to shun, to resist [what is] evil [around us].

But i also believe that God will 'abandon' those souls, who actively seek [or actively choose] those influences which are un-Godly, and he will abandon those souls who [themselves] abandon all discernment between good and evil.

God does not want to lose any soul, not one, to the demonic.

But he will not 'compel' people, to abandon those evil [spiritual] influences [which they choose].

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Grey

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #124 - Jul 18^th, 2011 at 12:03pm

Quote:

Helian - Yet some are born with neurological pathologies that manifest as 'evil.

If it is so, which I suspect it would be impossible to prove, it would be so rare as to be unworthy of consideration in support of the religious concept 'evil'. Psychopathological disorders are, to all intents and purposes, always a consequence of environmental factors; further, even the best of us have the capacity to do bad things.

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"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: The Problem of Evil Reply #125 - Jul 18^th, 2011 at 12:09pm Quote: Yadda - Demons are real. They are spirits. Yadda was not born this way, it's the result of a 'belief system'.
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Yadda

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #126 - Jul 18^th, 2011 at 12:14pm

muso wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 10:23am:

Is it evil to get yourself into that kind of situation where you are no longer accountable for your actions?

Is it an act of wickedness, for us to abandon any discernment, between what is good, and what is evil ???

Duh!

Google;

changes in heart transplant recipients that parallel the personalities of their donors

Google;

heart transplant recipients report strange changes

+++

We ourselves, are the 'gatekeepers' of our hearts.

We choose which spirits we allow [invite] into our hearts.

And nobody [and no spirit] can compel us, to join with those spirits.

And no spirit can compel us to do what is evil.

No body compels us, to choose the evil.

When we choose the evil, it is because we ourselves choose it.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #127 - Jul 18^th, 2011 at 12:35pm

Grey wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 12:09pm:

Quote:

Yadda - Demons are real.

They are spirits.

Yadda was not born this way, it's the result of a 'belief system'.

The spirit of God taught me these things.

Can you believe that ? Wink

+++

Romans 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 Corinthians 2:9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 22076 A cat with a view	Re: The Problem of Evil Reply #128 - Jul 18^th, 2011 at 12:39pm Yadda wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 12:35pm: The spirit of God taught me these things. Can you believe that ? Psalms 25:12 What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.
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muso

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #129 - Jul 18^th, 2011 at 3:48pm

Yadda wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 12:14pm:

muso wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 10:23am:

Is it evil to get yourself into that kind of situation where you are no longer accountable for your actions?

Is it an act of wickedness, for us to abandon any discernment, between what is good, and what is evil ???

Duh!

It's certainly irresponsible to put yourself in a situation where you don't know right from wrong. No argument there. My point was largely rhetorical.

Quote:

Google;

changes in heart transplant recipients that parallel the personalities of their donors

Google;

heart transplant recipients report strange changes

It's a pretty major operation. What you feel about it depends to a great extent on your belief system.

Quote:

+++

We ourselves, are the 'gatekeepers' of our hearts.

We choose which spirits we allow [invite] into our hearts.

And nobody [and no spirit] can compel us, to join with those spirits.

And no spirit can compel us to do what is evil.

No body compels us, to choose the evil.

When we choose the evil, it is because we ourselves choose it.

I would say that we are largely masters of our own destiny. I don't believe in spirits, but I do believe in notions. If you get the wrong notion it can lead you far astray.

For example, you can get the notion that a group of human beings are evil just because of their religion. That's a notion that will lead you astray and lead to to many erroneous conclusions. (dare I mention Hitler?)

The "spirit of God" taught me that. (my common sense)

Again - of course it's happening inside your head. Wink

My friend, there are many paths up the Mountain, but the view of the moon from the top is the same. Wink

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« Last Edit: Jul 18^th, 2011 at 4:04pm by muso »

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Emma

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #130 - Jul 19^th, 2011 at 1:40am

My friend, there are many paths up the Mountain, but the view of the moon from the top is the same. - Muso.
Indeed.

Yet some are born with neurological pathologies that manifest as 'evil. - Helian.
I agree H.
People act - and other people view that act from their very own perspective/experience.

If it is so, which I suspect it would be impossible to prove, it would be so rare as to be unworthy of consideration in support of the religious concept 'evil'. Psychopathological disorders are, to all intents and purposes, always a consequence of environmental factors; further, even the best of us have the capacity to do bad things. - Grey

'The Problem of Evil ' does NOT come down to just a religious interpretation. The word - evil - where ever it comes from, - is an all - purpose word. It serves to cover many HUMAN acts. No need for a Devil, or spirits.
Certainly there have been/are - many circumstances in the world where the evil that men do - is rampant, obvious and unrestrained.!! For us evil walks in the form of a man.

Grey - these disorders are not so rare as you might think.! It has been estimated - more or less- that up to 20% of people are psycho -/socio-paths. Often found in high power types..

Psychopathological disorders are, to all intents and purposes, always a consequence of environmental factors; further, even the best of us have the capacity to do bad things.

Certainly - one of the few things I do actually believe is that anyone of us is capable of anything - given the trigger.

The search for the nature of evil need go no further than human motivations.

Environment is undeniably a major factor, perhaps the most important, BUT not the only one. There is always the question of genes, and the propensity that the 'evil' continues into later progeny.

Perhaps it has something to do with the universal idea of entropy -
hmm not sure if thats the word I want.

I really DON'T believe that WE are totally in control of our psyche - our Id.
Maybe some are -- but it seems to me, from observation, that humans really have no clear idea of the 'repercussions' - or consequences - of their actions.

We are truly still just barbaric children.

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live every day

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #131 - Jul 19^th, 2011 at 6:47am

muso wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 10:23am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 7:46am:

Grey wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 1:07am:

'Evil' is a religious concept. Nobody is born evil as they would have you believe.

Yet some are born with neurological pathologies that manifest as 'evil.

What's the difference between a malfunctioning brain that results in a murder and a malfunctioning piece of machinery that results in somebody getting killed?

Which, if any are evil?

Dunno... Would make for a good reality show.. "Marvin Bulch wakes from a coma and bashes a nurse to death with his bedpan... Did he go bad in the dark? Is he evil? You decide next, on 'When The Brain Dead Attack'.

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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muso

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #132 - Jul 19^th, 2011 at 10:39am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 19^th, 2011 at 6:47am:

muso wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 10:23am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 7:46am:

Grey wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 1:07am:

'Evil' is a religious concept. Nobody is born evil as they would have you believe.

Yet some are born with neurological pathologies that manifest as 'evil.

What's the difference between a malfunctioning brain that results in a murder and a malfunctioning piece of machinery that results in somebody getting killed?

Which, if any are evil?

Dunno... Would make for a good reality show.. "Marvin Bulch wakes from a coma and bashes a nurse to death with his bedpan... Did he go bad in the dark? Is he evil? You decide next, on 'When The Brain Dead Attack'.

It all comes down to the definition of human constructs.

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muso

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #133 - Jul 19^th, 2011 at 10:49am

Emma wrote on Jul 19^th, 2011 at 1:40am:

The search for the nature of evil need go no further than human motivations.

Environment is undeniably a major factor, perhaps the most important, BUT not the only one. There is always the question of genes, and the propensity that the 'evil' continues into later progeny.

Perhaps it has something to do with the universal idea of entropy -
hmm not sure if thats the word I want.

I really DON'T believe that WE are totally in control of our psyche - our Id.
Maybe some are -- but it seems to me, from observation, that humans really have no clear idea of the 'repercussions' - or consequences - of their actions.

We are truly still just barbaric children.

Evil can also be considered as anthropogenic. If a snake bites your new kitten, you'd tend to think of the snake as evil. Alternatively, the kitten was about to kill the snake, so maybe its intention was evil.

In truth neither are evil. While we as humans have the facility to commit evil deeds, who can know what the final or intermediate consequences will be. Remember the Ancient Chinese story of the farmer who finds a fine wild stallion?

This is good fortune... (who can tell?)

The Romans conquered huge parts of Europe, committing atrocities everywhere they went, killing and stealing from people. The positive result was a system of civil standards and laws throughout Europe that were to persist even to this day.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #134 - Jul 19^th, 2011 at 2:26pm

muso wrote on Jul 19^th, 2011 at 10:39am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 19^th, 2011 at 6:47am:

muso wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 10:23am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 7:46am:

Grey wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 1:07am:

'Evil' is a religious concept. Nobody is born evil as they would have you believe.

Yet some are born with neurological pathologies that manifest as 'evil.

What's the difference between a malfunctioning brain that results in a murder and a malfunctioning piece of machinery that results in somebody getting killed?

Which, if any are evil?

Dunno... Would make for a good reality show.. "Marvin Bulch wakes from a coma and bashes a nurse to death with his bedpan... Did he go bad in the dark? Is he evil? You decide next, on 'When The Brain Dead Attack'.

It all comes down to the definition of human constructs.

Personally, I go with neither being evil..

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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