Australian Politics Forum - Definition of Atheism

freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53257 At my desk.	Re: Definition of Atheism Reply #30 - May 3^rd, 2011 at 8:45pm Einstein's theories of relativity have replaced the conventional (Newtonian) concepts of time, mass and space. These things are not some kind of fixed reference point by which to judge all else. A more sensible criteria for delineating the natural from the supernatural is repeatability and consistency.
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muso

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Re: Definition of Atheism
Reply #31 - May 4^th, 2011 at 9:33am

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on May 3^rd, 2011 at 6:09pm:

Despite all the complexities used to describe the mind, there's still no evidence to prove it can escape time, space, and causality. Meaning, the mind is 'natural' as opposed to 'supernatural'.

I don't consider "supernatural" to be a cognitively meaningful term. How do you distinguish the terms supernatural and nonsense?

You describe it as that which can escape time, space, and causality. How do you detect it then? How do you know that it's distinct from a brain function?

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Definition of Atheism Reply #32 - May 4^th, 2011 at 9:36am freediver wrote on May 3^rd, 2011 at 8:45pm: A more sensible criteria for delineating the natural from the supernatural is repeatability and consistency. Can you expand on that? Are you saying that my random number generator is supernatural?
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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Definition of Atheism Reply #33 - May 4^th, 2011 at 10:35am freediver wrote on May 3^rd, 2011 at 7:00pm: That is an odd criteria for something to be supernatural. The conventional view of time and space has already been disproved, and our current concept of causality is also being challenged. Is Immanuel Kant aware of that?
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freediver

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Re: Definition of Atheism
Reply #34 - May 4^th, 2011 at 4:27pm

Quote:

I don't consider "supernatural" to be a cognitively meaningful term. How do you distinguish the terms supernatural and nonsense?

One involves a value judgement.

Quote:

Can you expand on that? Are you saying that my random number generator is supernatural?

It is repeatable. You can get it to do it's thing at will. The outcome is entirely predictable if you know the initial state and trigger time. Also, even if you assume it to be genuinely random, you can measure and quantify the distribution. Consistency does not have to mean predictability. Repeatability and consistency are the 'rules of thumb' we use in deciding whether to describe something as natural or supernatural.

Quote:

Is Immanuel Kant aware of that?

He is dead.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Definition of Atheism
Reply #35 - May 4^th, 2011 at 7:48pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on May 3^rd, 2011 at 9:53am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 2^nd, 2011 at 8:34am:

Sappho wrote on May 2^nd, 2011 at 7:57am:

Eastern beliefs place emphasis on striving for perfection/ nirvana/ nothingness. Such concepts are of the mind alone and not reflected in reality.

And they almost universally posit a duality of mind and body, such that while the body is transient and contingent, there is 'something immortal and immanent in mind' (either mind itself or a divine essence which causes mind) which (in most systems) transmigrates - at least and until some 'point of perfection' has been reached or achieved, whereupon this disembodied 'mind' or 'essence' 'exists' in a state of 'neither being nor non-being'.

The deification of mind in all but name.

Excellent point.
In all these recent threads on god/religion/atheism the mind/body split has hardly been mentioned (besides myself). Most religions, as you point out, are predicated on the mind/body split. If you expose the falsity of the mind/body split then all their beliefs come crashing down.

You might imagine that without an immortal 'deified' mind distinct from body this would expose a fatal flaw in the respective belief system, but I doubt that would matter much to believers... Metaphysical beliefs are tenacious and the theory of god / immortality of life's essence (for want of a term where mind is not separate from body) would survive acknowledgement that duality is false.

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Sappho

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Re: Definition of Atheism
Reply #36 - May 5^th, 2011 at 3:45am

freediver wrote on May 2^nd, 2011 at 7:40pm:

Quote:

Atheists are just content to exist with an absence of religious belief, what is so hard to understand about that??

Might have something to do with the ones like Grey that want to ban everything to do with relgion. It's like they want to have the dark ages all over again, but with atheists in charge this time.

Well, I think you are going a bit over the top there Freediver, but having spent a couple of days at the Australian Foundation for Atheists, I very much disagree with the quote above yours.

I have learned that there are many atheists out there who are not content living without belief in theism. Rather, they obsess over theism and why they don't accept it as valid or evidenced. They like to engage theists in debate about theism with the purposes of denigrating same. They are also extremely intolerant... so much so that they are causing me to think about my attitudes and whether they are extreme... such as my desire to see all forms of religion removed from state schools.

You would think that they would be promoting atheist ethics and morality... seeking to find some kind of universal goal such as the exploration of the mind... refining their reasoning and logic... but not a lot of that goes on. They seem too entrenched in disproving theism.

I have to wonder... why do atheists want to disprove theism?

On the up side... they do engage science... or at least post scientific articles to which others add one liner posts.

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it_is_the_light Gold Member Offline Christ Light Posts: 41434 The Pyramid of LIGHT Gender:	Re: Definition of Atheism Reply #37 - May 5^th, 2011 at 3:56am freewill beloved ones believe as you do so wish eyes yet do not see yes,forgiven all is in accordance with the divine plan there is a proven sacred geometrical order ...as above planets traversing around stars and so below electrons traversing around nuclei and so it is namaste
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Definition of Atheism Reply #38 - May 5^th, 2011 at 6:56am Sappho wrote on May 5^th, 2011 at 3:45am: I have to wonder... why do atheists want to disprove theism? They sound more like anti-theists.
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Ex Dame Pansi Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 24168	Re: Definition of Atheism Reply #39 - May 5^th, 2011 at 7:01am Thanks for the message Mr Light. There is a new moon rising I feel the energy. Walk carefully and do not harm another living creature. And so it is.
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53257 At my desk.	Re: Definition of Atheism Reply #40 - May 5^th, 2011 at 6:44pm Quote: On the up side... they do engage science... or at least post scientific articles to which others add one liner posts. I think I posted my views about evolution not being a scientific theory and that is what got me banned.
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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Definition of Atheism Reply #41 - May 5^th, 2011 at 7:41pm freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2011 at 4:27pm: Quote: Is Immanuel Kant aware of that? He is dead. Ahem - I know that. It was an oblique reference to those referring to Kant as some kind of authority, when in fact he lived in a historical period of relative ignorance.
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muso

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Re: Definition of Atheism
Reply #42 - May 5^th, 2011 at 7:46pm

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2011 at 4:27pm:

Quote:

Can you expand on that? Are you saying that my random number generator is supernatural?

It is repeatable. You can get it to do it's thing at will. The outcome is entirely predictable if you know the initial state and trigger time. Also, even if you assume it to be genuinely random, you can measure and quantify the distribution. Consistency does not have to mean predictability. Repeatability and consistency are the 'rules of thumb' we use in deciding whether to describe something as natural or supernatural.

So you're saying that nothing that is supernatural is consistent or repeatable?

My magic watch always tells the right time. It just disappears occasionally.

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muso

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Re: Definition of Atheism
Reply #43 - May 5^th, 2011 at 7:49pm

Sappho wrote on May 5^th, 2011 at 3:45am:

I have to wonder... why do atheists want to disprove theism?

IMHO the type of people who actually join Atheist 'clubs' are tortured individuals. They are probably deconverted Baptists who miss the "talking to sky daddy" bit

Quote:

On the up side... they do engage science... or at least post scientific articles to which others add one liner posts.

What's the connection?

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mavisdavis

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Re: Definition of Atheism
Reply #44 - May 5^th, 2011 at 8:32pm

freediver wrote on May 3^rd, 2011 at 8:45pm:

Einstein's theories of relativity have replaced the conventional (Newtonian) concepts of time, mass and space. These things are not some kind of fixed reference point by which to judge all else.

A more sensible criteria for delineating the natural from the supernatural is repeatability and consistency.

If God exists, she would be natural, wouldn`t she?
Not peroxide! SURELY NOT!!!!!!!!

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