Australian Politics Forum - People who believe that God does not exist

freediver

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People who believe that God does not exist
Apr 30^th, 2011 at 2:29pm

If a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist?

This extraordinarily simple question with a yes/no answer has so perplexed and divided atheists that they have taken to refusing to answer it.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1303676733

This thread has gone to 21 pages so far and some are still holding out on giving an answer.

Muso, in a comparitively brave move, gave an answer upfront only 9 pages in:

muso wrote on Apr 26^th, 2011 at 5:31pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2011 at 2:42pm:

Helian and Grey, if a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist?

Why is this question so hard to answer?

I don't think it's hard to answer. At least I don't have any stake in the matter, so here goes.

A person who believes that Gods don't exist is an Atheist, however an Atheist is not necessarily a person who believes that Gods don't exist.

Can you follow that? It's like saying that a dog is an animal, but an animal is not necessarily a dog.

Sappho gave both answers, as is her wont, after first insisting the question is incomprehensible. At least she didn't accuse me of trickery in asking the question:

page 13:

Sappho wrote on Apr 27^th, 2011 at 10:40pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 27^th, 2011 at 9:32pm:

Helian, Grey and Sappho, if a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist?

To be honest... I just don't know... I don't know what it means to believe that god does not exist.

What does it mean to believe in things that don't exist?

Sappho wrote on Apr 28^th, 2011 at 7:37pm:

So again Freediver... would you do us the honour of explaining what the question actually means... unless of course... even you can't explain the meaning of the question... which your avoidance of an explanation seems to suggest.

page 15:

Sappho wrote on Apr 28^th, 2011 at 8:31pm:

In answer to your question.. "if a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist?"... no they would not be atheist. Atheism is not about belief in... it is about not believing in... it is not about an understanding of... it is about a lack of understanding.

page 18:

Sappho wrote on Apr 29^th, 2011 at 10:42pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 29^th, 2011 at 6:58pm:

Sappho wrote on Apr 28^th, 2011 at 10:28pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 28^th, 2011 at 10:00pm:

Quote:

[quote]In answer to your question.. "if a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist?"... no they would not be atheist. Atheism is not about belief in... it is about not believing in... it is not about an understanding of... it is about a lack of understanding.

So what are they then?

Irrational fanatics... who also happen to be Atheist.

Interestingly, she also reserves the labels agnostic and atheist for herself, depending on what she is contempalting at the time:

Quote:

When I define my position relative to Theism, I am Athiest. However, what exists or does not exist beyond Theism is unknown to me... so I neither believe nor disbelief... I remain Agnostic

Helian and Grey were the strongest holdouts, and also the two I originally directed the question at.

Grey eventually gave an answer on page 17, perhaps in fear of being left out once muso and Sappho had answered.

Grey wrote on Apr 29^th, 2011 at 9:38pm:

Quote:

Helian and Grey, if a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist?

No, only eloquent people are allowed to be Atheists.

If a person knows that the belief they are believing doesn't exist they need a doctor.

In an argument reminiscent of witchcraft accusations, they accused me of a linguistic sleight of hand, though neither could follow through with a rational justification for this accusation, as it lead to another question they had trouble answering - do such people even exist? Grey thinks they are agnostics.

page 20:

Grey wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:10am:

Quote:

Do you 'reject' the existence of people who believe that God does not exist?

No. Not exactly, but it's a convoluted way of expressing agnosticism. Belief is inextricable from faith. Racism is a belief system. If you believe in god/gods you're not an atheist.

Helian on the other hand is still holding out, but occasionally asks me to skip a few steps ahead in the argument and keep going from there without knowing what happened in the middle.

So we have muso who responded with a quick and simple yes, Sappho who gave both yes and no depending on what she was contemplating at the time, Grey who said no on account of failing the eloquence criteria, and Helian who still refuses to answer on the grounds of linguistic trickery. We also have an interesting follow up question - do these people actually exist, and do they actually believe what they believe.

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« Last Edit: Apr 30^th, 2011 at 2:49pm by freediver »

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freediver

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Re: People who believe that God does not exist
Reply #1 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 2:47pm

On page 12:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 27^th, 2011 at 7:55pm:

You're attempting the old linguistic sleight of hand... You're trying to establish that “believing-in” is the same for atheists as for theists. Just a tactic always exploited by theists and their apologists.

Said before here.... but saying it again...

When the theist states “I believe god exists”, he necessarily must/will inevitably go on to define what the nature of that belief is. He must define the thing in which he believes – his theism. That is what the act of “believing-in” requires of the believer.

This is not true of the “atheist”. His response to the theist is “I don’t believe you”.

He is not required to develop an ism – His statement does not require an “atheology”.

His is not a “believing-in” the non-existence of god in the manner that the theist must necessarily believe-in the existence of god.

So, the statement “atheists believe in the proposition that god does not exist” leads to a misapprehension in that it may allow one to think that it is consequentially the same as “theists believe in the proposition that god exists”.

The statement “atheists disbelieve the proposition that god exists” dispels that linguistic illusion and marks “atheism” as attributively dissimilar to “theism”.

It may be said that atheists are permanently in the state of absence-of-belief-in-god, so long as no one infers from that that they are actively “believing-in the non-existence of god”.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 27^th, 2011 at 7:55pm:

I don’t know... I’ve never met anyone who actually believes in the non-existence of god. (see above for “believing-in”).

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 27^th, 2011 at 7:55pm:

Because it’s not an honest question. It is a device intended to demonstrate that “atheism” is the act of “believing-in” in the same way that theism is an act of “believing-in”... That both acts are attributively the same. Are you prepared to accept that they are not?

page 21:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 9:52am:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 9:42am:

Pretty much. To be an atheist you have to reject all religion right? Does it make sense to call a Chritian an atheist in contemplating Hinduism? I'm not sure why this is a problem.

What's your next step? Atheism is a religion? Roll Eyes

Anyway, I thought now would be a good time to open up the same question to everyone. Is it just atheists who have trouble answering?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: People who believe that God does not exist
Reply #2 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 2:49pm

After much insisting that the question is simple, at the 18th page freediver’s concentration lapsed somewhat and admitted this (regarding definitions):

Quote:

[It] depends how you define Muslim. And gay of course.

Then a day later (still 18 pages in) this :

Quote:

The other problem with dictionary definitions is the ambiguity, which is an inevitable consequence of the brevity.

So much for simple questions!

So, if a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist?

I say :

It may be said they are atheists (being permanently in the state of absence-of-belief-in-god), so long as you do not infer from that statement, that they are actively “believing-in the non-existence of god”.

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freediver

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Re: People who believe that God does not exist
Reply #3 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 2:59pm

Helian, I am asking about your deifnition, not the dictionary. Remember, it was yours and Grey's attempt to define atheism out of existence that prompted the question. It gets difficult if you ask a dictionary because you can't ask for further clarification in the case of ambiguity. This is not true of people able to think for themselves.

If it were to be said, would you agree with it?

And what if they actively believed that God does not existence, as the question asks? Are they an atheist?

Would it make a difference to your answer if they believed it passively rather than actively?

Does it make any difference to your answer if I leave out all the dashes?

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Sir lastnail Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 30334 Gender:	Re: People who believe that God does not exist Reply #4 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:05pm I'm quite happy being an atheist according to the dictionary definition of the word http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist Quote: a·the·ist /ˈeɪθiɪst/ Show Spelled[ey-thee-ist] Show IPA –noun a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: People who believe that God does not exist
Reply #5 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:07pm

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 2:59pm:

Helian, I am asking about your deifnition, not the dictionary. Remember, it was yours and Grey's attempt to define atheism out of existence that prompted the question.

Hardly out of existence (you're displaying more deceit there FD)... I have always said that an atheist disbelieves the proposition that god/s exist.

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 2:59pm:

And what if they actively believed that God does not existence, as the question asks? Are they an atheist?

And who would 'they' be?

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 2:59pm:

Does it make any difference to your answer if I leave out all the dashes?

The dashes indicate that I intend the statement to take on its own autonomy and while "state of absence-of-belief-in-god" could also roughly be rendered as "state of disbelief", but I wanted to highlight "absence" as being fundamental to the state.

And, no, I do not consider "absence" to be tangible.

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« Last Edit: Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:13pm by NorthOfNorth »

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50550 At my desk.	Re: People who believe that God does not exist Reply #6 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:13pm Quote: And who would 'they' be? The people I am asking about. People who believe that God does not exist. Are they atheists? Or, if it is easier for you to answer - do they even exist?
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: People who believe that God does not exist
Reply #7 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:19pm

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:13pm:

Quote:

And who would 'they' be?

The people I am asking about. People who believe that God does not exist. Are they atheists?

Or, if it is easier for you to answer - do they even exist?

You could say that there are sane people out there who, yesterday upon the stair, met a man who wasn't there...

but I haven't met any (neither people who weren't there nor any sane person who has met one).

If the moon was cheese would it taste like Camembert?

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Bobby.

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Re: People who believe that God does not exist
Reply #8 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:19pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:05pm:

I'm quite happy being an atheist according to the dictionary definition of the word Wink

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist

Quote:

a·the·ist
/ˈeɪθiɪst/ Show Spelled[ey-thee-ist] Show IPA
–noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Also - they don't believe in:
witches, goblins, leprechauns, elfs, father Xmas, the tooth fairy,
or the doctrine of the infallibility of the Pope, miracles, or Holy water,
virgin births, ressurection, parting of the seas, the devil, heaven or hell......

the list goes on.

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Sir lastnail Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 30334 Gender:	Re: People who believe that God does not exist Reply #9 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:38pm freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:13pm: Quote: And who would 'they' be? The people I am asking about. People who believe that God does not exist. Are they atheists? Or, if it is easier for you to answer - do they even exist? Yes I believe that God does not exist. Next question ??
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Prevailing

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Re: People who believe that God does not exist
Reply #10 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:40pm

Bobby. wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:19pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:05pm:

I'm quite happy being an atheist according to the dictionary definition of the word Wink

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist

Quote:

a·the·ist
/ˈeɪθiɪst/ Show Spelled[ey-thee-ist] Show IPA
–noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Also - they don't believe in:
witches, goblins, leprechauns, elfs, father Xmas, the tooth fairy,
or the doctrine of the infallibility of the Pope, miracles, or Holy water,
virgin births, ressurection, parting of the seas, the devil, heaven or hell......

the list goes on.

Yes but what about the mystery of the Communion of the "Holy Transubstantiated Corporate Person". Do you believe in that and that the character, substance and presence of a true person resides in the Corporate legal fiction? Shocked

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Bobby.

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Re: People who believe that God does not exist
Reply #11 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:51pm

Prevailing wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:40pm:

Bobby. wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:19pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:05pm:

I'm quite happy being an atheist according to the dictionary definition of the word Wink

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist

Quote:

a·the·ist
/ˈeɪθiɪst/ Show Spelled[ey-thee-ist] Show IPA
–noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Also - they don't believe in:
witches, goblins, leprechauns, elfs, father Xmas, the tooth fairy,
or the doctrine of the infallibility of the Pope, miracles, or Holy water,
virgin births, ressurection, parting of the seas, the devil, heaven or hell......

the list goes on.

Yes but what about the mystery of the Communion of the "Holy Transubstantiated Corporate Person". Do you believe in that and that the character, substance and presence of a true person resides in the Corporate legal fiction? Shocked

Prevailing.
Are you on any medication?

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Prevailing

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Re: People who believe that God does not exist
Reply #12 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 4:16pm

This is as daft and insidious a scam as the religious economic communion scam and it is principled on the same alchemy and mysticism. You need to be medicated if you believe that because you are swallowing all of the same things that you claim you reject such as religious sacraments and communion just dressed up in different garbs - do you think a business corporate entity is any different in essence to a religious corporate entity or perhaps thinking about it is above your IQ ticket. Grin

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« Last Edit: Apr 30^th, 2011 at 4:21pm by Prevailing »

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adelcrow Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20133 everywhere Gender:	Re: People who believe that God does not exist Reply #13 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 4:51pm I am a proud Athiest I do not believe in a god, medieval superstitions or the repressive nature of organised religion.
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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 111572 Melbourne Gender:	Re: People who believe that God does not exist Reply #14 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 4:53pm Quote: do you think a business corporate entity is any different in essence to a religious corporate entity No - they both are in business to make money.
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