Australian Politics Forum - Half On Disability Pension Should Get A Job.

longweekend58

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Re: Half On Disability Pension Should Get A Job.
Reply #105 - May 1^st, 2011 at 5:02pm

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 4:58pm:

Is this the future for Australia's welfare recipients. As China gets more living space, we get less.
...........................................................................

China's 'homes' feel the squeeze

Soaring property prices in Beijing and other Chinese cities are giving rise to a new line of accommodation - "apartments" little wider than a narrow bed and hardly a meter longer, earning landlords ready cash at little cost and snapped up by young workers on low pay, often with families to support back home.

Each small apartment, at 2.4 meters long, 0.90 meters wide and 2 meters high, has space only for a single bed and a dressing table, with TV set and Internet connections.

"The rented places are just like individual toilet cubicles put in a room. How can people live there?" was the broad response from the general public who saw a picture posted by Internet blogger Zhang Qi of her living space in Beijing. [1]

Zhang, apparently the first tenant of such a compartment in Beijing, disagrees, appreciating the privacy that comes with three walls and a front door and at a price she can afford. The Shanxi native, who earns about 4,000 yuan (US$586) a month at an advertisement company in Beijing, pays 250 yuan rent monthly for the compartment in the capital city, the first of its kind in China. Before moving, she shared a flat with a roommate at 800 yuan per month.

"Now I can save more money for my mom and siblings who live in my home town," Zhang said.

The bed is placed hard between two walls in the roughly two-square-meter rented space, so Zhang has to crawl over it before she can sit in front of the dressing table. A canopy of wire netting is intended to create some air flow and make the room light.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China_Business/LD28Cb02.html

http://static3.businessinsider.com/image/4bd6d3627f8b9a801c360000-374-280/chines...

http://static3.businessinsider.com/image/4bd6d3627f8b9a801c360000-374-280/chinese-small-room.jpg

while I know you are perennially confused but your first line is a classic. 'china gets MORE living space' and then you report on 2sqm apartments.

and you wonder why so many think you are vegy's twin.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Equitist

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Re: Half On Disability Pension Should Get A Job.
Reply #106 - May 1^st, 2011 at 5:03pm

Quote:

Mission Australia has government contracts to help 55,000 long-term unemployed into work.

What has been Mission Australia's rate of success with these contracts?

Have they successfully placed a total of 55,000 people in secure employment since they became Job Network parasites?

What has been the annual rate of secure placement of its clients?

How long do they expect it would take them and other Job Network parasites to securely place in employment the 400,000 DSP recipients that they claim can be successfully placed - and at what cost and under what conditions?

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Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!

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longweekend58

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Re: Half On Disability Pension Should Get A Job.
Reply #107 - May 1^st, 2011 at 5:03pm

BigOl64 wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 5:02pm:

Kat wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 4:04pm:

Take non-means-tested WEALTHfare away from the middle-class
and there would be PLENTY for the GENUINE welfare recips.

The middle and upper-classes neither need NOR deserve a slice
of the welfare pie, but THAT'S where the cost blowouts are.

An example is someone like Andrei accepting a $5k baby-bonus
while pocketing $200k+ a year in salary.

A single unemployed person gets a maximum of approximately
TWICE the baby-bonus, to pay EVERYTHING for a year.

The bottom-line is that, due to greed and selfishness, the middle
and upper-classes are essentially STEALING money that SHOULD
be going to pensioners, the unemployed, and sole-parents.

NOT fair, NOT just, NOT equitable, NOT RIGHT. Never was, never will be.

When it come to the breeding bonus, I'd rather see it go to the middle income earners than to the friggen ferals. This country does not need more dole bludging ferals being born, it need more workers.

BTW, what you dikhead socialist call wealthfare is just a tax refund on our OWN money, it isn't a handout when you EARNED it in the first place.

and interesting point that needs repetition.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Ex Dame Pansi

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Re: Half On Disability Pension Should Get A Job.
Reply #108 - May 1^st, 2011 at 5:05pm

<<Senator Brown argues that saved revenue should be used to put in place a national dental care scheme, "or an increase of $50 a week for NewStart, youth allowances, Austudy and Abstudy and single parenting payments". >>
................................................................................
........

Wouldn't that be nice. The happy smiling faces of the students and unemployed Grin

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"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." Hendrix
andrei said: Great isn't it? Seeing boatloads of what is nothing more than human garbage turn up.....

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Equitist

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Re: Half On Disability Pension Should Get A Job.
Reply #109 - May 1^st, 2011 at 5:12pm

longweekend58 wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 5:03pm:

BigOl64 wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 5:02pm:

BTW, what you dikhead socialist call wealthfare is just a tax refund on our OWN money, it isn't a handout when you EARNED it in the first place.

and interesting point that needs repetition.

The simple fact is, that our current mixed-market economic system disproportionately rewards some individuals (and groups of individuals) at the expense of others - and therefore that the tax and transfer system ought to be utilised to restore a semblance of equity to the community...

Many of not most high income individuals don't 'earn' income per se - much of their income and wealth is derived through exploiting the efforts of others...

Those who have passive incomes are not 'earning' their money at all...

Those who already have high personal incomes and control remuneration levels of a corporation - and generously reward themselves with above-CPI increases and bonuses, whilst depriving others of real wage increases - can hardly claim to have 'earned' their income...

Moreover, those who engage in complex income and other tax minimisation scams have not earned the money that they retain by depriving other taxpayers of...

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Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!

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Kat

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Re: Half On Disability Pension Should Get A Job.
Reply #110 - May 1^st, 2011 at 5:20pm

longweekend58 wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 4:48pm:

Kat wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 4:39pm:

longweekend58 wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 4:15pm:

Quote:

Take non-means-tested WEALTHfare away from the middle-class
and there would be PLENTY for the GENUINE welfare recips.

The middle and upper-classes neither need NOR deserve a slice
of the welfare pie, but THAT'S where the cost blowouts are.

An example is someone like Andrei accepting a $5k baby-bonus
while pocketing $200k+ a year in salary.

A single unemployed person gets a maximum of approximately
TWICE the baby-bonus, to pay EVERYTHING for a year.

The bottom-line is that, due to greed and selfishness, the middle
and upper-classes are essentially STEALING money that SHOULD
be going to pensioners, the unemployed, and sole-parents.

NOT fair, NOT just, NOT equitable, NOT RIGHT. Never was, never will be.

convenient but totally incorrect. only 4.6% goes to upper middle and uper class families. thats not going to save much. and your argument about 'deserving' can be a two-edged sword. do you really want ALL wefare recipients to be judged if they DESERVE it or not? what about if we include other characteristics beyond financial means? what about moral right, worthiness etc? Dont fling around 'deserve' so carelessly unless you want to be judged accordingly. there are many dole recipients wo do NOT deserve it by that criteria. dole bludgers, new immigrants etc. they do not 'deserve' it. but that is not how we give out welfare. it is a combo of both 'need' and 'entitlement'. to presume that it is judged entirely on one or the other is simplistic and wrong.

I have stated on numerous occasions thaT I have no problem with
these types being weeded out, but I maintain that to penalise the
majority (who are trying to get work of some kind) doesn't help
ANYONE. Not the recip, not society.

Nor does causing homelessness, family break-ups or mental
illness, ALL of which are likely outcomes of not raising the 'benefit'
above subsistence-level.

Thats a motherhood statement that contains zero practical suggestions for improving equity. And you still have not answered how increasind Welfare is to be paid for beyond your oft-stated idea of just tsaking it away from others. Good policy is a process of balancing competing needs such that no one is every happy but very few are UNhappy.

The pie simply needs to be re-sliced, with less wealthfare, and
ALL OF IT means-tested. Those at the lowest end are getting less
and less, while the top-end are getting proportionately more
and more.

I don't see how taking wealthfare from the middle-upper class
and giving the needy enough to have a life is wrong, while denying the genuinely needy enough to live on, and simultaneously throwing non-means-tested money at those who, much as they might LIKE some extra money, simply don't NEED it, is just fine.

To raise the No-Start rate to parity with the DSP is NOT an
unreasonable request, and the country CAN afford it.

The 'benefit' should then be tied to the MINIMUM WAGE, so
that the pensioners and unemployed do not get left behind
again as they have been until now.

I believe that my arguments, and my requests are, unlike some
(yes, Bill, I'm looking at you), perfectly reasonable and
sustainable, and should be given due consideration, not simply
rejected because they benefit the poor.

But we have a Govt (AND Opposition) for whom buying votes
takes precedence over any humanitarian considerations.

And for that, BOTH sides of politics stand condemned.

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longweekend58

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Re: Half On Disability Pension Should Get A Job.
Reply #111 - May 1^st, 2011 at 5:20pm

Equitist wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 5:12pm:

longweekend58 wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 5:03pm:

BigOl64 wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 5:02pm:

BTW, what you dikhead socialist call wealthfare is just a tax refund on our OWN money, it isn't a handout when you EARNED it in the first place.

and interesting point that needs repetition.

The simple fact is, that our current mixed-market economic system disproportionately rewards some individuals (and groups of individuals) at the expense of others - and therefore that the tax and transfer system ought to be utilised to restore a semblance of equity to the community...
Many of not most high income individuals don't 'earn' income per se - much of their income and wealth is derived through exploiting the efforts of others...

Those who have passive incomes are not 'earning' their money at all...

Those who already have high personal incomes and control remuneration levels of a corporation - and generously reward themselves with above-CPI increases and bonuses, whilst depriving others of real wage increases - can hardly claim to have 'earned' their income...

Moreover, those who engage in complex income and other tax minimisation scams have not earned the money that they retain by depriving other taxpayers of...

and you wonder why we call you a Stalinist!! the most discredited system in history yet you stil support its central tenets.

actually to be really honest your true ideology is nothing but unashamed envy masquerading as left-wing politics. all you want to do is take every increasing amounts from those who HAVE and give it to YOU while hating everyone at the same time.

it must be unpleasant being you.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Ex Dame Pansi

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Re: Half On Disability Pension Should Get A Job.
Reply #112 - May 1^st, 2011 at 5:21pm

<<What has been the annual rate of secure placement of its clients?>>
.............................................................

ooooooh! equitist, you shouldn't ask questions like this.

The government should create many many more job agencies until such time as every unemployed person has a job in one.

A huge employment conglomerate of networking systems that interact with the business world, and they can just email, fax and phone each other up for 38 hours a week. The job agency workers can have interstate business meetings with other job agency workers.
A whole new industry is born. Everyone's a winner! now how easy was that?

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"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." Hendrix
andrei said: Great isn't it? Seeing boatloads of what is nothing more than human garbage turn up.....

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BigOl64

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Re: Half On Disability Pension Should Get A Job.
Reply #113 - May 1^st, 2011 at 5:24pm

Equitist wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 5:12pm:

longweekend58 wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 5:03pm:

BigOl64 wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 5:02pm:

BTW, what you dikhead socialist call wealthfare is just a tax refund on our OWN money, it isn't a handout when you EARNED it in the first place.

and interesting point that needs repetition.

The simple fact is, that our current mixed-market economic system disproportionately rewards some individuals (and groups of individuals) at the expense of others - and therefore that the tax and transfer system ought to be utilised to restore a semblance of equity to the community...

Many of not most high income individuals don't 'earn' income per se - much of their income and wealth is derived through exploiting the efforts of others...

Those who have passive incomes are not 'earning' their money at all...

Those who already have high personal incomes and control remuneration levels of a corporation - and generously reward themselves with above-CPI increases and bonuses, whilst depriving others of real wage increases - can hardly claim to have 'earned' their income...

Moreover, those who engage in complex income and other tax minimisation scams have not earned the money that they retain by depriving other taxpayers of...

We were talking about middle income earners, you know those nasty wealthfare freeloaders you socialist so love to hate, not multi millionaire capitalist.

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longweekend58

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Re: Half On Disability Pension Should Get A Job.
Reply #114 - May 1^st, 2011 at 5:24pm

Quote:

The pie simply needs to be re-sliced, with less wealthfare, and
ALL OF IT means-tested. Those at the lowest end are getting less
and less, while the top-end are getting proportionately more
and more.

I don't see how taking wealthfare from the middle-upper class
and giving the needy enough to have a life is wrong, while denying the genuinely needy enough to live on, and simultaneously throwing non-means-tested money at those who, much as they might LIKE some extra money, simply don't NEED it, is just fine.

To raise the No-Start rate to parity with the DSP is NOT an
unreasonable request, and the country CAN afford it.

The 'benefit' should then be tied to the MINIMUM WAGE, so
that the pensioners and unemployed do not get left behind
again as they have been until now.

I believe that my arguments, and my requests are, unlike some
(yes, Bill, I'm looking at you), perfectly reasonable and
sustainable, and should be given due consideration, not simply
rejected because they benefit the poor.

But we have a Govt (AND Opposition) for whom buying votes
takes precedence over any humanitarian considerations.

And for that, BOTH sides of politics stand condemned.

How's this for an idea then. Based on your post you shoudl LOVE this one.

lets have only ONE tax scale. 100% and with no rebates etc. every dollar you earn goes to the govt which in turn pays out welfare - identical to every person regardless of if they work or not.

sound good?

Tell me why this is a bad idea.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Equitist

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Re: Half On Disability Pension Should Get A Job.
Reply #115 - May 1^st, 2011 at 5:39pm

longweekend58 wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 5:20pm:

Equitist wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 5:12pm:

longweekend58 wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 5:03pm:

BigOl64 wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 5:02pm:

BTW, what you dikhead socialist call wealthfare is just a tax refund on our OWN money, it isn't a handout when you EARNED it in the first place.

and interesting point that needs repetition.

The simple fact is, that our current mixed-market economic system disproportionately rewards some individuals (and groups of individuals) at the expense of others - and therefore that the tax and transfer system ought to be utilised to restore a semblance of equity to the community...
Many of not most high income individuals don't 'earn' income per se - much of their income and wealth is derived through exploiting the efforts of others...

Those who have passive incomes are not 'earning' their money at all...

Those who already have high personal incomes and control remuneration levels of a corporation - and generously reward themselves with above-CPI increases and bonuses, whilst depriving others of real wage increases - can hardly claim to have 'earned' their income...

Moreover, those who engage in complex income and other tax minimisation scams have not earned the money that they retain by depriving other taxpayers of...

and you wonder why we call you a Stalinist!! the most discredited system in history yet you stil support its central tenets.

actually to be really honest your true ideology is nothing but unashamed envy masquerading as left-wing politics. all you want to do is take every increasing amounts from those who HAVE and give it to YOU while hating everyone at the same time.

it must be unpleasant being you.

Once again you knowingly misrepresent me!

You are well aware that I accept that a degree of income inequity is both inevitable and reasonable - hence I reiterate my concern that the tax and transfer system needs to be utilised to reverse the trend of exponential polarisation of income, wealth, opportunity and debt!

You are also well aware that I have proposed tax changes for people in the top 10% - and the top 5%, 2% and 2% in particular - none of which are 'middle income' Australia...

I also support a family welfare threshold of $150,000 (indexed over time) - beyond which welfare becomes WEALTHfare...

Moreover, I have given reasons why I do not support the current pre-payment of multiple pensions to people who would never qualify for the Aged Pension - and provided independent research which proves that it would be cheaper (i.e. more cost-effective) to budget to pay full non-means-tested Aged Pensions to all Australians than it is to continue with the current reverse-means-tested Superannuation rorts...

I have also stated that I do not believe that any one individual is worth more than 10 times anyone else - and certainly not more than 20 times - at what level do you believe that inequality becomes counter-productive and destructive of socio-economic stability!?

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Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!

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BigOl64

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Re: Half On Disability Pension Should Get A Job.
Reply #116 - May 1^st, 2011 at 5:43pm

longweekend58 wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 5:24pm:

How's this for an idea then. Based on your post you shoudl LOVE this one.

lets have only ONE tax scale. 100% and with no rebates etc. every dollar you earn goes to the govt which in turn pays out welfare - identical to every person regardless of if they work or not.

sound good?

Tell me why this is a bad idea.

You've been reading the green's web site of great ideas / policies / aspirational goals again longy. Grin

This middle income 'wealthfare' whinge is really starting to wear thin, it's just a friggen tax rebate, something the government can't give to welfare recipients, for obvious reasons.

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longweekend58

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Re: Half On Disability Pension Should Get A Job.
Reply #117 - May 1^st, 2011 at 5:45pm

Equitist wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 5:39pm:

longweekend58 wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 5:20pm:

Equitist wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 5:12pm:

longweekend58 wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 5:03pm:

BigOl64 wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 5:02pm:

BTW, what you dikhead socialist call wealthfare is just a tax refund on our OWN money, it isn't a handout when you EARNED it in the first place.

and interesting point that needs repetition.

The simple fact is, that our current mixed-market economic system disproportionately rewards some individuals (and groups of individuals) at the expense of others - and therefore that the tax and transfer system ought to be utilised to restore a semblance of equity to the community...
Many of not most high income individuals don't 'earn' income per se - much of their income and wealth is derived through exploiting the efforts of others...

Those who have passive incomes are not 'earning' their money at all...

Those who already have high personal incomes and control remuneration levels of a corporation - and generously reward themselves with above-CPI increases and bonuses, whilst depriving others of real wage increases - can hardly claim to have 'earned' their income...

Moreover, those who engage in complex income and other tax minimisation scams have not earned the money that they retain by depriving other taxpayers of...

and you wonder why we call you a Stalinist!! the most discredited system in history yet you stil support its central tenets.

actually to be really honest your true ideology is nothing but unashamed envy masquerading as left-wing politics. all you want to do is take every increasing amounts from those who HAVE and give it to YOU while hating everyone at the same time.

it must be unpleasant being you.

Once again you knowingly misrepresent me!

You are well aware that I accept that a degree of income inequity is both inevitable and reasonable - hence I reiterate my concern that the tax and transfer system needs to be utilised to reverse the trend of exponential polarisation of income, wealth, opportunity and debt!

You are also well aware that I have proposed tax changes for people in the top 10% - and the top 5%, 2% and 2% in particular - none of which are 'middle income' Australia...

I also support a family welfare threshold of $150,000 (indexed over time) - beyond which welfare becomes WEALTHfare...

Moreover, I have given reasons why I do not support the current pre-payment of multiple pensions to people who would never qualify for the Aged Pension - and provided independent research which proves that it would be cheaper (i.e. more cost-effective) to budget to pay full non-means-tested Aged Pensions to all Australians than it is to continue with the current reverse-means-tested Superannuation rorts...

I have also stated that I do not believe that any one individual is worth more than 10 times anyone else - and certainly not more than 20 times - at what level do you believe that inequality becomes counter-productive and destructive of socio-economic stability!?

What gives you the right to dtermine what anyone should be PERMITTED to earn? is that not the central tenet of communism? the inequity we have is superior to any of the equality of the communist system.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Prevailing Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 7169 Stop Men	Re: Half On Disability Pension Should Get A Job. Reply #118 - May 1^st, 2011 at 8:57pm Well Mission Australia has a threat on the table after their fascist comments a couple of weeks ago - dont try me boys because I will have you in court and up to your eyeballs in bad publicity.
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Emma

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Re: Half On Disability Pension Should Get A Job.
Reply #119 - May 2^nd, 2011 at 2:15am

Once again have read all these posts with interest.

PERHAPS I should start with what really gets to me- as a human being. And I so do agree with Kat, Equitist, but no way to ahicks longy oldfart..........
And that would be the real harm done to basic human rights during the Howard yrs. I admit to abhorring the diminutive creep, and his putrescent grin, his de-humanising, regressive and degrading policies. OOOPS .. on with the topic.

Prevailing - thats always Good........ My experience is a mix - I have prevailed, i have failed - BUT I do agree that Federal Govt depts are responsible for an uncomfortable amount of damage to their 'officers'!!
NOT anecdotal..
AND they fight like the Devil to limit their loss. However, they are basically so incompetent that - if you have enough front, RIGHT ON YOUR SIDE, you may get somewhere. More likely - if you've got enough front, knowledge of Law and wrong on your side you will win.!!( BUT that comment doesn't relate to DSP - sorry)

They have significantly failed me, - to my lifelong detriment. Its a matter which I won't talk about here - but - it happened long enough ago, and I have been unable to work since. So I am on DSP - Nor will I ever work outside my home again, ..unless forced, of course, which would be BAD. I am one of the 'unemployables'. !!!

And I'm quite sure that harm minimalisation not necessarily being relevant for their employees , applies to private employers too.
Longy probably will not agree!?? eh? Longy - you are an employer - that 's how you approach this topic. Plenty more where that one came from?? HMMM maybe not. !!! You might have to employ GASP a migrant.
You are really quite an offensive person aren't you? Do you? find it hard to keep 'good' employees? Wouldn't surprise me AT ALL. Grin

BUT TOPIC TOPIC--

I find this topic quite a good example of another of our Society's failures.
OK if we were Inuit from last century - yous could all put us out to die of starvation and exposure, as unnecessary burdens. .
(rubbing your grimy hands are you?) Angry

Except we're not - and having witnessed and experienced ..what I have.. the govt. if it does indeed continue to zero-in on the most disadvantaged, then - you know what sort of society you are living in. Don't you eh?

BUT MOST OF ALL - WTF do you think DSP pensioners, or other beneficiaries for that matter, spend their money on? Holidays to Bali? Kakadu? Europe?
V8's, grog, drugs??? R U Sure thats what you'd do??? If you had to survive on social security??? Remember THAT phrase??? SOCIAL SECURITY.
NOT - welfare
The Hated Govt did that. Shows how successful political advertising and spin is. Because - when YOU think of pensions, sickness benefits, carers allow , and other payments , ( NOT BABY BONUSES) .... do you think of it as social security? something a properly focussed , successful society provides its citizens,?? as I always had,

or do you think of it as WELFARE. A term so pejorative in its implications, in a 'work or else' society, that bringing it into OUR daily language - was a crime just on it's own.!!?

My DSP goes on just living in my own home. U no stuff like rates mortgage power comms FOOD ???AND I pay TAX - remember the good old GST? Don't have enough income to pay income tax. Still pay 10% to the Govt on most transactions. Just like your entrepreneur or pollie. Is that fair?

- Forget the movies, eating out, magazine subscriptions, Sunday drives, taking in a show, driving down or up the Coast to see the sights, buying NEW clothing or furniture, visiting relatives, owning tech like HD and Digital, Big Screen TV, Home improvement or a decent driveway.

Seriously, Labor MUST address the issues/ the values that formed them in the first place, ...NOT try playing the dirty game's of the rich and corporate juggernauts.
Thats a whole OTHER game. Huh

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