Australian Politics Forum - Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?

Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 112139 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #60 - Apr 25^th, 2011 at 11:02pm NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 25^th, 2011 at 10:41pm: Bobby. wrote on Apr 25^th, 2011 at 10:24pm: They were all infallible. No, only for the last 141 years.... Popes... Getting it right since 1870.
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It_is_the_Darkness

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #61 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 12:13am

Camden 2032:
The originally 'farming' area soon became a hotbed of Religious contention when Sydney Moslems wanted to build an Islamic School there.
Suddenly there was outcry against such a school and it mostly came from the Christians that were already there.

...now Islam has more of a connection to 'The Land' than what Christianity would. So you would think that the Farmers would be have to have a Religious expression that can 'relate' to their area. The only trouble was that 'their' area now belonged to Christian branches.
The Christians had 'exploited' the situation. Eventually, Camden changed from a Rural area to a bit of a built up sub-city of outer Sydney and thus the Jews decided to move in because the Religion of Judaism is very 'city' orientated. Of course more outcry and disharmony.
Now you would think these three Religions could "get along", but one can only wonder if the culture of Sydney and NSW tends to follow a 'replication' of what has already gone before up in the Northern Hemisphere for ages past.

...eventually, the Three Religions had to face the fact that Australia was changing and that Camden was now a 'Religious' place and that the Librarians were in charge because their Holy Books were long over-due. So in the end, the Three Old World Religions finally managed to get their 'shi t' together in the face of adversity from an even more prickly adversary ...Bands of Musicians who just claimed the Mushroom Tunnel under the banner of Mushroom Records.

It will never end.

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It_is_the_Darkness

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #62 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 12:23am

Also,
Cuba may have been 3rd World Politically speaking in the face of USA expectations, but it has been proven that it has always been 1st World Medically (because its part of the Occidental region of the world Wink

) speaking and its citizens, most of its citizens enjoy this aspect of their nation.
Now for you www.COMmunists out there - don't forget Australia's "Egalitarianism" Wink

...its still there.

Buggery and all things anal is rife in every industry, not just the Catholic Church. Its easy to say that anyone who isn't having sex with someone of the opposite sex in the name of Celibacy - MUST BE have sex with someone of the same sex ...the act of NO SEX AT ALL, just seems to have slipped their mind. Poor George Clooney was labelled Gay by all the Gold-diggers who were constantly rejected by his state of Celibacy (and the company of his pet pig).
Only 9% of Catholic Clergy are 'gay', the majority of the rest practice the act of 'Celibacy' quite well. Its good to see an ex-nazi Pope, cleansing the Catholic Church of these filthy buggers as well.

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Grey

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #63 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 1:19am

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2011 at 10:12pm:

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Their atheism is questionable

But some guy from 500 years ago who tortured people was certainly a follower of Jesus, or a true representation of Catholicism? Surely you can see the silly circular reasoning you are getting yourself into?

Surely there is a clear distinction between laying what the Christian church has done in its name, at the feet of that church; and laying what communists have done in the name of communism, at the feet of atheists. <shakes head, head banging to come I'm sure>

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A rigidity that the Atheist, like the Anarchist, rejects.

I could understand that statement for an anarchist or an agnostic, but an atheist? Some of the most rigid people I have met are atheists. How could someone who holds a firm belief based on nothing more than the rejection of other people's belief be anything but rigid?

Atheists do not hold a firm belief, they hold a firm disbelief, see my first post on this thread. A popular atheist saying goes -

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

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"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #64 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 1:28am Jasignature - Just a note to let y'know I do appreciate your creative, witty and deviant takes on issues, even when the jokes on me. I'm just too locked in to a certain mindset to respond in kind.
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muso

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #65 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 7:53am

Grey wrote on Apr 25^th, 2011 at 3:18pm:

muso wrote on Apr 25^th, 2011 at 2:59pm:

I like religious festivals for their culture, their colour and their food, but most of all - their celebration of humanity.

secularists celebrate culture colour and food too y'know muso. The difference is Lovers of symphony, opera and rock don't feel a need to kill each other and condoms are freely available in the olympic village.

Some do. We could take the most extreme repercussions of the rock culture (sex drugs and rock and roll) and make an argument that it's just as extreme as some of the examples provided from the inquisition.

Of course I've never seen people from a Vivaldi concert being spurred on to violence, but hey. (vague recollections of a Clockwork Orange)

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secularists celebrate culture colour and food too y'know muso.

I know. I guess I am a secularist myself, but that doesn't mean that I can't enjoy religious festivals.

I liked Pansi's J S Spong quote. Very apt.

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Apr 25^th, 2011 at 5:06pm:

"A common religion where we join hands in humanity and rejoice in the journey that each of us has taken. A new day dawns and it might look vaguely like the realm of God."

Excerpt from The Sins of Scripture by J S Spong

.....................................................................

No one religion has a monopoly on God so there will be no reason to fight.

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« Last Edit: Apr 26^th, 2011 at 8:06am by muso »

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freediver

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #66 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 7:59am

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Surely there is a clear distinction between laying what the Christian church has done in its name, at the feet of that church; and laying what communists have done in the name of communism, at the feet of atheists.

Sure, in one you are blaming an institution, in another, you are blaming real people. Just as attempts to ban religion are all about blaming modern people for all the crap that went on in the past. Fundamentally, you attempt to establish a causal relationship merely by pointing out correlations. But the correlations are all over the place and you have to pick and choose which facts you acknowledge. It seems absurd when people do it for atheists, but for some reason you guys don't blink an eyelid when you do it for religious people.

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Atheists do not hold a firm belief, they hold a firm disbelief

A disbelief is a belief. You still believe something. The fact that it is irrational does not mean you don't believe it.

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A popular atheist saying goes -

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe

See? Your own quote contradicts you.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 112139 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #67 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 8:42am Bobby. wrote on Apr 25^th, 2011 at 10:24pm: Freediver. Quote: some guy from 500 years No - a sucession of Popes for 500 years were responsible for the Inquisition. They were all infallible. No reply from Freediver - it's a good point isn't it?
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #68 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 8:47am freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2011 at 7:59am: A disbelief is a belief. You still believe something. The fact that it is irrational does not mean you don't believe it. . Disbelief is the absence of belief. It is not, in itself, belief.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50921 At my desk.	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #69 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 8:49am Absence of belief is either agnosticism or ignorance.
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #70 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 8:55am freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2011 at 8:49am: Absence of belief is either agnosticism or ignorance. And also a rejection. If your brother-in-law told you he was god, it would not be an act of belief on your part to disbelieve his proposition.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50921 At my desk.	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #71 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 8:58am Do you have a word for people who believe that God does not exist?
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Grey

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #72 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 9:00am

freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2011 at 7:59am:

[quote]Surely there is a clear distinction between laying what the Christian church has done in its name, at the feet of that church; and laying what communists have done in the name of communism, at the feet of atheists.

Quote:

Sure, in one you are blaming an institution, in another, you are blaming real people.

freediver is a lawyer and I claim my $5 bonus Grin

Yes with the inquisition the entire institution is rotten to the core, whereas communism had a few bad eggs, if you like

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Just as attempts to ban religion are all about blaming modern people for all the crap that went on in the past.

Now just a cotton picking moment.... Grin

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Fundamentally, you attempt to establish a causal relationship merely by pointing out correlations. But the correlations are all over the place and you have to pick and choose which facts you acknowledge.

In science, when a predictable thing happens, over and over again, we tend to call it a pattern.

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It seems absurd when people do it for atheists, but for some reason you guys don't blink an eyelid when you do it for religious people.

Atheist - somebody who does not believe in a god or gods. An atheist can be a communist, a royalist, a conservative, an anarchist, a republican, a liberal, a greenie, a neo con, a gypsy, an aristocrat, a butcher, baker or candlestick maker. Atheists have as many common bonds as people who don't eat blue veined cheese.

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A disbelief is a belief. You still believe something. The fact that it is irrational does not mean you don't believe it.

Atheism is a belief like not collecting stamps is a hobby. Wink

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"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #73 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 9:03am freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2011 at 8:58am: Do you have a word for people who believe that God does not exist? No. Only one for those who disbelieve the proposition that god exists. And another word for those who take exception to belief in god.
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freediver

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #74 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 9:06am

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Yes with the inquisition the entire institution is rotten to the core, whereas communism had a few bad eggs, if you like

So 500 years ago every Catholic was supported torture, and every atheist opposed it?

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In science, when a predictable thing happens, over and over again, we tend to call it a pattern.

But it is not predicatable. Prediction is about the future, not picking and choosing examples from the past and pretending you predicted them.

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Atheism is a belief like not collecting stamps is a hobby.

How do you duistinguish atheist and agnostic?

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No. Only one for those who disbelieve the proposition that god exists.

So you define them out of existence? Is this because you believe they don't exist, or just because it is more convenient for you if people can't easily refer to them any more?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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