Australian Politics Forum - Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?

freediver

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #315 - May 1^st, 2011 at 7:49am

muso wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 8:58pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 1:55pm:

Quote:

You are using words as they are not intended. Atheism is the antonym of Theism. Of all the various theistic believes I have explored, none cause me to believe in any of them. I have not explored all theistic belief systems... but I have, because of my interest in Mythology, explored a great many and found I do not believe in any of them. In this context I identify as Atheist.

If ever I happen upon a Theistic belief system that I find believable... I will stop identifying as Atheist... no doubt, that will be the day that hell freezes over.

I neglected to mention that all Theistic belief systems have something in common... they are human constructs.

That sounds a lot more like agnosticism than atheism.

So let me get this right, your view is that a person who doesn't believe in Gods is an ....agnostic? ... and the only person you personally would define as an atheist is a person who states that he 'believes in the non existence of all Gods.'

It seems a bit strange.

Agnostics concede the possibility of God's existence. If you do not concede this possibility, there is not much wiggle room between your position and believing that God does not exist. I don't see how one or many Gods changes this logic.

Thus the rpesence or absence of belief is the simplest way to distinguish the two positions.

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #316 - May 1^st, 2011 at 10:20am

Quote:

Freediver - Do you 'reject' the existence of people who believe that God does not exist?

Quote:

Grey - No. Not exactly, but it's a convoluted way of expressing agnosticism. Belief is inextricable from faith. Racism is a belief system. If you believe in god/gods you're not an atheist.

Quote:

Freediver - It has nothing to do with agnosticism.

Quote:

Freediver - Agnostics concede the possibility of God's existence. If you do not concede this possibility, there is not much wiggle room between your position and believing that God does not exist. I don't see how one or many Gods changes this logic.

Thus the rpesence or absence of belief is the simplest way to distinguish the two positions.

And there we have it. freediver understands the position of Helian, myself et al very well indeed.

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muso

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #317 - May 1^st, 2011 at 10:25am

freediver wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 7:49am:

Quote:

So let me get this right, your view is that a person who doesn't believe in Gods is an ....agnostic? ... and the only person you personally would define as an atheist is a person who states that he 'believes in the non existence of all Gods.'

It seems a bit strange.

Agnostics concede the possibility of God's existence. If you do not concede this possibility, there is not much wiggle room between your position and believing that God does not exist. I don't see how one or many Gods changes this logic.

Thus the rpesence or absence of belief is the simplest way to distinguish the two positions.

OK, I'll buy your definition for the moment. So a person who concedes the possibility that Gods might (or might not) exist is an agnostic.

There are three types of agnostic (please clarify where you disagree):

1. A person who concedes the possibility that God exists,and chooses to believe in God (through faith) - An Agnostic Theist (which would be the majority of them in my experience)

2. A person who concedes the possibility that God exists, but chooses to believe that God doesn't exist (on the balance of evidence) - An Agnostic Atheist (again, most Atheists are also agnostic)

3. A person who concedes the possibility that God exists,and has no position on God (that's what I'd term a Vanilla Agnostic)

(edit) I forgot to mention the vanilla atheist - the person who doesn't concede there's a possibility that deities exist. I've never met one yet. (maybe Nails)

Question:

In your view must a person be aware of the concept of deities before he can be classified as being:

1. An Atheist
2. An Agnostic ?

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« Last Edit: May 1^st, 2011 at 10:56am by muso »

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Yadda

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #318 - May 1^st, 2011 at 11:18am

Soren wrote on Apr 28^th, 2011 at 11:09am:

Gnosis and episteme (L. scientia) are different types of knowledge. Doxa (orthodoxy/heterodoxy) and pistis (L. fideo, faith, commitment) are also different types of 'belief'.
Nobody has scientia of God. Both deists and atheists have a gnosis about god, one positive, one negative (agnostics claim being able to resist going there). All have lotsa doxa and also some fideo but not about the same thing. Hubris is a trap for all.

Dictionary;
sciential = = concerning or having knowledge.

+++

Nobody has knowledge of God ???

Widely assumed to be true, if we out of hand, dismiss the account of the history of the Jewish people.

True, if we dismiss the account of the history of the Jewish people, which is recorded in Jewish scripture.

Whereas...

If we examine the scripture of the Jewish people, it could be argued that;
If a man can believe that account, and if that man seeks an understanding of what that account is able to convey,
...then even the most brutish of men can have a measure of 'scientia of God'.

And that, is the purpose of scripture.

Psalms 1:1
Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Scientia [knowledge] of God ???

Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Throughout its pages, the Bible states that if we seek God [in humility, and in righteousness], God will reveal himself to us.

"...if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever."
1 Chronicles 28

Isaiah 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Dictionary,
contrite = = feeling or expressing remorse.

+++

[David sought to build a temple of wood and stone [a 'house'], for God to dwell in, 1 Chronicles 17:1-5]

No 'house', except his people...

Exodus 29:46
And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them: I am the LORD their God.

Numbers 35:34
Defile not therefore the land which ye shall inhabit, wherein I dwell: for I the LORD dwell among the children of Israel.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Psalms 11:4
The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

+++

If there is a God, can men, have 'knowledge' of God ???

Some 'scientia' of God, is conveyed within Jewish scripture...

Jeremiah 9:23
Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

Micah 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Psalms 25:8
Good and upright is the LORD: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.
9 The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.
10 All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.
11 For thy name's sake, O LORD, pardon mine iniquity; for it is great.
12 What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.
13 His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.
14 The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.

If a man seeks God, then God's spirit, will teach that man,

"...in the way that he shall choose."

That, is what it says.

+++

Whereas, who are they [among men], which prevent themselves, from having 'scientia' of God ???

Jeremiah 9:3
And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.
4 Take ye heed every one of his neighbour, and trust ye not in any brother: for every brother will utterly supplant, and every neighbour will walk with slanders.
5 And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, and weary themselves to commit iniquity.
6 Thine habitation is in the midst of deceit; through deceit they refuse to know me, saith the LORD.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #319 - May 1^st, 2011 at 11:20am

Soren wrote on Apr 28^th, 2011 at 11:09am:

Gnosis and episteme (L. scientia) are different types of knowledge. Doxa (orthodoxy/heterodoxy) and pistis (L. fideo, faith, commitment) are also different types of 'belief'.
Nobody has scientia of God. Both deists and atheists have a gnosis about god, one positive, one negative (agnostics claim being able to resist going there). All have lotsa doxa and also some fideo but not about the same thing. Hubris is a trap for all.

+++

Nobody has knowledge of God ???

If there is a God, would religious leaders have knowledge of God ???

Not in Jesus day....

Matthew 15:8
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Jesus warned his disciples off men pleaser's....

Matthew 16:6
Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

John 8:23
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

So, why is there no 'scientia' of God, [commonly] among men ???

For an answer, read this next text carefully...

Psalms 10:1
Why standest thou afar off, O LORD? why hidest thou thyself in times of trouble?
2 The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined.
3 For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.
4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.

"For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire..."

What does that word hubris mean again ???

Duh.

+++

Psalms 7:11
God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

Psalms 15:1
LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
2 He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.

This 'God of the Bible', does seem to be overly obsessive, ...always on about 'truth' and 'righteousness'.

And yet today, as in Jesus day, men are much less interested in truth and righteousness, than in pleasing themselves.

What is that phrase again ?

"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

???

+++

There is no common 'scientia' of God, because most men, in their own moral choices, separate themselves, from God.

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

In that last Bible verse, truth, is a verb.

+++

Soren...
Quote:

Nobody has scientia of God.

What did Jesus have to say about 'scientia' of God ???

"...The wind [the spirit of God] bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"
John 3:3-12

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
....
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

"...the Spirit of truth"

Truth, ...what a strange word to use, when speaking about knowledge of God ???
/sarc off

And Paul...

1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

And David...

Psalms 51:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

+++

Romans 8:5
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

+++

Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Soren

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #320 - May 1^st, 2011 at 11:55am

WHat I was trying to show, Yadda, is that in greek (the language of the NT) there are different kinds of 'knowledge'. Scientia and gnosis are not the same. Nobody has scientific (scientia, experimental positivist knowledge) of God.
Atheists think in terms of scientia as the only true knowledge, quantifiable and verifyable by experiment.
When the Pauline letters speak of knowledge, the word in the original is always gnosis.

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Grey

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #321 - May 1^st, 2011 at 11:55am

muso wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 10:25am:

freediver wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 7:49am:

Quote:

So let me get this right, your view is that a person who doesn't believe in Gods is an ....agnostic? ... and the only person you personally would define as an atheist is a person who states that he 'believes in the non existence of all Gods.'

It seems a bit strange.

Agnostics concede the possibility of God's existence. If you do not concede this possibility, there is not much wiggle room between your position and believing that God does not exist. I don't see how one or many Gods changes this logic.

Thus the rpesence or absence of belief is the simplest way to distinguish the two positions.

OK, I'll buy your definition for the moment. So a person who concedes the possibility that Gods might (or might not) exist is an agnostic.

There are three types of agnostic (please clarify where you disagree):

1. A person who concedes the possibility that God exists,and chooses to believe in God (through faith) - An Agnostic Theist (which would be the majority of them in my experience)

2. A person who concedes the possibility that God exists, but chooses to believe that God doesn't exist (on the balance of evidence) - An Agnostic Atheist (again, most Atheists are also agnostic)

3. A person who concedes the possibility that God exists,and has no position on God (that's what I'd term a Vanilla Agnostic)

(edit) I forgot to mention the vanilla atheist - the person who doesn't concede there's a possibility that deities exist. I've never met one yet. (maybe Nails)

Question:

In your view must a person be aware of the concept of deities before he can be classified as being:

1. An Atheist
2. An Agnostic ?

I'd take off white atheist rather than agnostic atheist Grin

It's like anything else really. There are as many different types of atheist as there are christians ot conservatives, roughly as many as there are people who so self describe.

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Yadda

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #322 - May 1^st, 2011 at 12:18pm

muso wrote on Apr 29^th, 2011 at 10:51pm:

Sappho wrote on Apr 29^th, 2011 at 10:42pm:

Do non theistic gods exist? I don't know. My answer makes me Agnostic on matters of non theistic gods.

I bought one in Africa. It's made of wood.

Nah, you were sold a 'pup'.

Or to be more precise, you were sold a piece of wood.

I would have thought that as a rational person, you would be cognisant of that fact. Wink

But if it pleases you to believe that you bought a God [or a lower-case, god], then i am not happy for you.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #323 - May 1^st, 2011 at 12:23pm

Soren wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 11:55am:

WHat I was trying to show, Yadda, is that in greek (the language of the NT) there are different kinds of 'knowledge'. Scientia and gnosis are not the same. Nobody has scientific (scientia, experimental positivist knowledge) of God.
Atheists think in terms of scientia as the only true knowledge, quantifiable and verifyable by experiment.
When the Pauline letters speak of knowledge, the word in the original is always gnosis.

OK.

My excuse is that i'm sometimes a little like Temperance Brennan [the character in 'Bones'].
...if you can conjure my meaning in that. Wink

And besides, [unlike Temperance Brennan] i'm not an educated person.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 22255 A cat with a view	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #324 - May 1^st, 2011 at 1:03pm freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 8:23am: Grey: Quote: Free a belief implies a trust, confidence in or acceptance of a received theology. So my belief that flying pigs don't exist means I am a regular at the church of the grounded pig? LOL
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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #325 - May 1^st, 2011 at 1:12pm

muso wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 8:23am:

Soren wrote on Apr 29^th, 2011 at 1:52pm:

But I suspect that a good deal of atheism is due to religious inexperience.

I suspect that a good deal of theism is due to irreligious inexperience, and religion for the sake of stability.

Did you catch the segment on Indian secularism on LNL? (OT perhaps but right up your street)

'Challenges' in my own life, certainly caused me to 'seek help'.

Q.
Was that choice, which i made, and that 'path' which i consequently embarked upon, a mistake ???

A.
Not from my perspective.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #326 - May 1^st, 2011 at 1:48pm

mozzaok wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 9:27am:

The religious have always sought to protect their domain by declaring any diversion from their script as an eternal damnation worthy event, and that unearned, and undeserving exclusion from open questioning will no longer work, now that so many see that they are not just odd ones out of step with the believers, but actually a part of a large number of individuals who have independently come to the same conclusion.
That has given people far more confidence to call BS when they see it, without fear of breaking a cultural taboo.
Religion , and religious belief, are no longer sacrosanct, out of bounds topics, and the more light that is shed upon them,

....the more apparent it becomes that the whole structure is an inverted pyramid shaped house of cards, all pinned on Alan really having come down and told the three amigos the meaning of life, via the singing bush.
I don't care if the people who want to believe that actually happened, also don't care that I call BS when they do.

I agree, in part.

i.e.
I believe that it is good, virtuous even, for people to scrutinise and challenge the beliefs of others.

And i believe that people with 'religious beliefs' should be prepared to have their 'reality' challenged.

p.s.
And, i can proudly claim, that i have never threatened to cut anyone's head off, because their 'worldview' was different to my own. Wink

Though i do acknowledge that in past centuries, many Christians took it upon themselves to 'protect' their God, by murdering 'heathens' and infidels, who offended him [i.e. God].
....coz clearly, God is impotent, and he certainly needs men's help to protect himself from those dreadful 'heathens', and infidels.
/sarc off

+++

1 Thessalonians 5:21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #327 - May 1^st, 2011 at 2:38pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 9:52am:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 9:42am:

Pretty much. To be an atheist you have to reject all religion right? Does it make sense to call a Chritian an atheist in contemplating Hinduism? I'm not sure why this is a problem.

What's your next step? Atheism is a religion? Roll Eyes

LOL

+++

Isaiah 29:9
Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?
16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #328 - May 1^st, 2011 at 3:28pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:34am:

mozzaok wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:26am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:20am:

.....Where are the religious folk here staking their claim?

....If you want some proselytising, start a conversation with yadda, he will quote scripture to you day in, day out if you let him.

I had a few goes at asking Yadda but he merely quotes bible passages and then says "go your own way".

As i have stated before, i have no proof, that God exists.
[...that is, no proof outside of my own experience. And, my experience is that it is impossible for my carnal mind, to perceive the spiritual.]

I can't even 'predict' if the sun will rise tomorrow morning!

The scripture bit....

Ecclesiastes 3:10
I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.
11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
12 I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life.

p.s.
Anyway, what is wrong with a lil scripture ??? Wink

My advice is, if men want to become cognisant of God, they could start by reading the Psalms,
OR, don't.

Go your own way. Wink

Walk your own path.

Believe what you will.

We all do.

If you want to know if God will 'touch' you, try to read the Bible.

I can't read or interpret the Bible for another person.

i.e.
I have said elsewhere;

Words can paint a picture in our mind.

If you read a course of words within the Bible, reading those words, you will 'perceive' something different from another person reading those same words.

THAT, is how the spirit of God 'works'.

But we are meant to seek God, for ourselves.

Matthew 23:9
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #329 - May 1^st, 2011 at 3:49pm

Quote:

2. A person who concedes the possibility that God exists, but chooses to believe that God doesn't exist

That sounds like a contradiction to me. It is hard to believe that God does not exist while concurrently conceding the possibility that God does exist. Belief means you think you are right.

Quote:

In your view must a person be aware of the concept of deities before he can be classified as being:

1. An Atheist
2. An Agnostic ?

Sure. I included 'ignorant' as a category in one of my earlier posts.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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