Australian Politics Forum - Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?

Grey

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #300 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 12:06pm

mozzaok wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:15am:

I do not entirely agree Grey, I am an avowed atheist, most would consider me a militant atheist, and many a strong anti-theist, yet I can conceive of concepts of "gods" that I consider plausible.
Of course nobody would worship a god or create a religious doctrine around any of the concepts of god that I consider as plausible.

The sticking point is that so many religious imperialists take the acceptance that a god concept is possible, as justifying all god concepts as rational, when so obviously they are not.

I consider God/s to be exclusively a construct of religions mozzaok; super humanoids that create, control and are the first cause. As soon as you talk in terms of goddidit, I reckon you can't call yourself an atheist. That's not to say that atheism rules out any 'spirituality' or sense of the numinous.

A personal understanding might be that, all things are connected and are composed into greater and greater bodies, like the Gaia hypotheses for instance. The human body is a composition of 'living' and 'inert' materials, (though some philosphies may not make such distinctions). And so we can view the Earth as a living body because it too is composed of the living and inert. Ultimately all bodies are a part of a total body we call Universe. And personally I think that's a word of great beauty 'The one poem'. I can be filled with ecstacy when I contemplate the Universe and love it very much. Is the Universe synonymous with word god? Not in my book.

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Grey

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #301 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 12:19pm

Sappho wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:20am:

Grey wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 9:27am:

Actually i think believing things is an awful bad habit that many of the worlds ills are attached to.

Indeed... what is the nature of reality... isn't that what you are getting at?

I think so Sappho. Wink

I think that structures, (networks) built entirely on faith/belief are structures to be suspicious of. Of course we are all pragmatic sometimes. I beleve in 'climate change' but I haven't made a thorough examination of the maths. I trust science as an institution. I think that's justifiable because I do know the basic premises that science is built on. The foundations are sound.

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Grey

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #302 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 12:24pm

Sappho wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:16am:

Of late... the only non theistic deity that I will entertain was created in a cogent fiction by Asimov. A computer created by humans is then put to the task of finding out how to reverse entropy which it achieves only after all light and life from that universe is extinct. And the last line from that fiction... 'Let there be light....'

I am yet to decide however which is the deity... that which creates light (the computer)... or that which creates the creator of light (humans.)

Have you read Frank Herbert and Bill Ransome's 'The Jesus Incident' Cheesy

Some pearls in that.

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freediver

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #303 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 1:55pm

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What's your next step? Atheism is a religion?

My next step is to ask you whether a person is an atheist if they believe God does not exist. One step at a time remember?

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No. Not exactly, but it's a convoluted way of expressing agnosticism.

It has nothing to do with agnosticism.

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You are using words as they are not intended. Atheism is the antonym of Theism. Of all the various theistic believes I have explored, none cause me to believe in any of them. I have not explored all theistic belief systems... but I have, because of my interest in Mythology, explored a great many and found I do not believe in any of them. In this context I identify as Atheist.

If ever I happen upon a Theistic belief system that I find believable... I will stop identifying as Atheist... no doubt, that will be the day that hell freezes over.

I neglected to mention that all Theistic belief systems have something in common... they are human constructs.

That sounds a lot more like agnosticism than atheism.

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My argument goes towards deities and not religion... I spoke of Abraham's god, the goddess Athena and god Adonis as examples of the marked differences in deities.

What is your argument again?

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That is not agnostic... that is belief in a non theistic deity. Agnostics neither believe nor disbelieve... Agnostics don't know one way or another.

I did not mean to imply it was actual agnosticism, just that their beliefs were closer to a model you suggested as plausible than to traditional religion.

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So is the Stock Market - so is money. In fact they are very similar to theistic belief systems in that if suddenly everybody stopped believing in them, they would have no affect on people.

So it would have no effect on people if we had to go back to bartering or some other economics system?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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gizmo_2655 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16010 South West NSW Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #304 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 2:44pm Well FD, I've always considered an atheist to be someone who disbelieves in deities and agnostic as someone who disbelieves in organised religions....
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #305 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 2:52pm

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 1:55pm:

Quote:

What's your next step? Atheism is a religion?

My next step is to ask you whether a person is an atheist if they believe God does not exist. One step at a time remember?

You forget, we've all been here a few times before over the years, counsellor. I know your destination.

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50601 At my desk.	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #306 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 2:54pm I don't believe I have asked you this question before - hence my interest in why it has you so stumped. You are now the only holdout.
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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #307 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 2:58pm What are you freediver?
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50601 At my desk.	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #308 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:02pm I am a person you met on the internet.
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It_is_the_Darkness Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4000 in a ReTardis Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #309 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 5:12pm
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Ex Dame Pansi Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 24168	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #310 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 6:55pm
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Bobby. Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 111664 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #311 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 7:37pm That's a great cartoon.
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It_is_the_Darkness Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4000 in a ReTardis Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #312 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 8:14pm Like I've always said: Jesus looked down upon his Jews from the Cross and said "Wait till me little brother Hitler gets yas" (Ali whispered in Tyson's ear "Get em for me" in regards to Holmes and Berbick putting him into retirement quite smugly.)
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muso

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #313 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 8:58pm

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 1:55pm:

Quote:

You are using words as they are not intended. Atheism is the antonym of Theism. Of all the various theistic believes I have explored, none cause me to believe in any of them. I have not explored all theistic belief systems... but I have, because of my interest in Mythology, explored a great many and found I do not believe in any of them. In this context I identify as Atheist.

If ever I happen upon a Theistic belief system that I find believable... I will stop identifying as Atheist... no doubt, that will be the day that hell freezes over.

I neglected to mention that all Theistic belief systems have something in common... they are human constructs.

That sounds a lot more like agnosticism than atheism.

So let me get this right, your view is that a person who doesn't believe in Gods is an ....agnostic? ... and the only person you personally would define as an atheist is a person who states that he 'believes in the non existence of all Gods.'

It seems a bit strange.

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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #314 - May 1^st, 2011 at 1:56am freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:02pm: I am a person you met on the internet. Hahaha I'm onto it, strangeness. Hyper repetative, answers with stilted speech, the only puzzle is how it got past a verification code that defeats most humans.
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