Australian Politics Forum - Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?

muso

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #225 - Apr 29^th, 2011 at 8:44am

freediver wrote on Apr 28^th, 2011 at 7:55pm:

By people who believe that God does not exist, I mean like Dawkins, who claims to have proven that god does not exist. Although I'm not sure that is the whole story. In any case plenty of his supporters 'believe'. I also think the majority of atheists believe in their position, but some might switch to agnositicism if encouraged to think about it.

By atheist, I meant by Grey's and Helian's definitions. It was their attempt to redefine the term that prompted me to ask.

I don't think that Dawkins is very representative of self-appointed atheists in general.

There are some interesting points. The question of belief in the sense of understanding is something that changes the debate. I think that applies to some people, but not all. For example, some people arrive at Deism because they see it as an elegant solution. I think there is a continuum within atheists, theists and agnostics - and to be fair I don't think that these labels always apply to real-life people.

I really don't think you're going to be able to define god in an adequate (cognitively meaningful) way, or at least you'll end up with a number of competing definitions. Consequently the term atheist is just as rubbery. You can try to put a finger on it, but as soon as you apply words, they cause "ripples in the Dao" that subtly changes the subject we're discussing.

When it comes down to religion, I can understand the cultural side of religions. I find this to be very enjoyable and like to pick and choose. I suspect that at worst, religion is a form of tribalism, and at best it's a way to keep alive ancient customs that would otherwise disappear.

The concept of gods intercepts religion. In some cases there are theistic religions. In some cases it's the attribution of 'spirits' to inanimate objects and in other cases, it's a means of understanding life without any gods or supernatural entities being involved.

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #226 - Apr 29^th, 2011 at 8:48am Grey wrote on Apr 29^th, 2011 at 12:52am: Quote: Sic transit gloria mundi Monday, had Glorious spew on bus. Hocine tibi habeas iocum?
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It_is_the_Darkness

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #227 - Apr 29^th, 2011 at 9:23am

Quote:

For a Light Bulb, you really are quite 'dim'.

Sin was the word used for the Moon/Luna that was Worshipped via the Temple of Ur.It was through Sin's inspiration upon the mind of man, that Writing was created and thus such things as God, Yalweh, Allah were eventually created over time and via later umbrella civilisations. So in essence, Religion was formed to express the ways of people in that region of the world and all the 'myths' that went with it.
You write, be it Text, Pen or fingerpaint - you are a Sin-Ur (Sinner).

In truth, the Sin-Urs vanished upon the first invasion of their civilisation for 'word' has spread that Writing was more valuble than Gold (God). They were smart enough to invent Writing (and the 'memory' that goes with it) and they were smart enough to hide much of their original works. They did leave some info ..."they'll be back" and when they do, the Monotheisms of today will have 'hell to pay'.

taken from the Spirituality sector.

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SUCKING ON MY TITTIES, LIKE I KNOW YOU WANT TO.

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Yadda

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #228 - Apr 29^th, 2011 at 9:40am

muso wrote on Apr 28^th, 2011 at 7:06pm:

Gnosis is generally defined as a kind of spiritual 'knowledge', and gnostics claimed to have special god-given knowledge, just as some Christians claim today.

2 Corinthians 12:1
It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Job 7:13
When I say, My bed shall comfort me, my couch shall ease my complaint;
14 Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:
15 So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life.
16 I loathe it; I would not live alway: let me alone; for my days are vanity.

Job 33:14
For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.
15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;
16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,
17 That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man.
18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.

When we pray, we speak to God.

When we meditate, we listen to God.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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muso

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #229 - Apr 29^th, 2011 at 9:44am

Yadda wrote on Apr 29^th, 2011 at 9:40am:

muso wrote on Apr 28^th, 2011 at 7:06pm:

Gnosis is generally defined as a kind of spiritual 'knowledge', and gnostics claimed to have special god-given knowledge, just as some Christians claim today.

When we pray, we speak to God.

When we meditate, we listen to God.

See - Yadda is an example. Walk in peace, my friend.

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Yadda

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #230 - Apr 29^th, 2011 at 9:52am

Yadda wrote on Apr 29^th, 2011 at 9:40am:

When we pray, we speak to God.

When we meditate, we listen to God.

p.s.
Which of the two conversations, is the most pertinent ???

We should try to quiet our mind.

We should try to stop the constant 'babbling', in our mind.

Listen to God more, and less, to the world about us.

The world, is a distraction.

Learn that, and you will learn something important.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #231 - Apr 29^th, 2011 at 10:30am

Sappho wrote on Apr 28^th, 2011 at 8:31pm:

In answer to your question.. "if a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist?"... no they would not be atheist. Atheism is not about belief in... it is about not believing in... it is not about an understanding of...

it is about a lack of understanding.

I am atheist because I do not believe in or understand the logic of theists. It just doesn't make sense.

Ooooaaar, oooaaar, oooaaar!

It is just too tempting, not to 'bite' that 'bait'. Grin

And my total response is;

Exactly.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #232 - Apr 29^th, 2011 at 12:45pm muso wrote on Apr 29^th, 2011 at 8:48am: Hocine tibi habeas iocum? Latin is a dead language, As dead as it can be, First it killed the Romans, And now it's killing me
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Foolosophy

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #233 - Apr 29^th, 2011 at 12:54pm

Grey wrote on Apr 29^th, 2011 at 12:45pm:

muso wrote on Apr 29^th, 2011 at 8:48am:

Hocine tibi habeas iocum?

Latin is a dead language,
As dead as it can be,
First it killed the Romans,
And now it's killing me

Latin and Greek would be the 2 most useful languages I would suggest for English speaking people. The advantages of knowing WHERE all the scientific, mathematical, medical, political, etc words and phrases come from is a huge assistance in comprehension and context

...people who understand and use more than one language in their daily lives live longer - adds approximately 6 years to life expectancy.

bilingual and multilingual people also recover faster from stress, shock related events and illnesses - inlcuding a far quicker recovery from stroke episodes than monlingual people

Grey keep the language lessons up!

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Prevailing

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #234 - Apr 29^th, 2011 at 1:03pm

Ironically it is todays Visible Church who are the gnostics and Manichaens, the true Christians believed that the Kingdom of God was within them and all around them, that they were the living Temple of God and that Visible man made temples were apostasy and the written Bible not inspired. They believed the Bible only described greater Spiritual realities hidden from the eyes of the unregenerate. To the Visible Christian Church they were condemned as Heretics. Cool

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Grey

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #235 - Apr 29^th, 2011 at 1:06pm

Quote:

By people who believe that God does not exist, I mean like Dawkins, who claims to have proven that god does not exist.

Not the last time I spoke to him. As a scientist Richard Dawkins knows very well that you cannot 'prove' anything to be true with certainty. you can only prove things to be useful to believe in or not.

Quote:

Although I'm not sure that is the whole story. In any case plenty of his supporters 'believe'.

No, they don't.

Quote:

I also think the majority of atheists believe in their position, but some might switch to agnositicism if encouraged to think about it.

The majority of Christians believe in their position, but some might switch to agnosticism if encouraged to think about it; or even Atheism if they thought some more.

Quote:

By atheist, I meant by Grey's and Helian's definitions. It was their attempt to redefine the term that prompted me to ask.

Atheism n. disbelief in the existence of god or gods; godlessness; so~ist (2) n, ~istic a. [f. F atheisme f. Gk atheos without god (a- not, theos god) see ism] - (Concise Oxford Dictionary)

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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #236 - Apr 29^th, 2011 at 1:09pm Quote: Muso - I don't think that Dawkins is very representative of self-appointed atheists in general. What in hells name is that meant to imply?
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Soren

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #237 - Apr 29^th, 2011 at 1:52pm

William James wrote about the variety of religious experiences. There are also irreligious experiences that would account for some atheists. But I suspect that a good deal of atheism is due to religious inexperience.

Atheism is also a self-selection for non-membership, and perhaps that's what Mr Musician was pointing to. ATheists don't want to belong with religious people, and never mind god, even if it is 'the Love which moves the sun and the other stars."

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muso

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #238 - Apr 29^th, 2011 at 1:54pm

Grey wrote on Apr 29^th, 2011 at 1:09pm:

Quote:

Muso - I don't think that Dawkins is very representative of self-appointed atheists in general.

What in hells name is that meant to imply? Grin

Maybe people who proclaim themselves to be atheists. Poor choice of words. Blame it on the fact that I'm very religiously ignostic.

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muso

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #239 - Apr 29^th, 2011 at 1:59pm

Prevailing wrote on Apr 29^th, 2011 at 1:03pm:

Ironically it is todays Visible Church who are the gnostics and Manichaens, the true Christians believed that the Kingdom of God was within them and all around them, that they were the living Temple of God and that Visible man made temples were apostasy and the written Bible not inspired. They believed the Bible only described greater Spiritual realities hidden from the eyes of the unregenerate. To the Visible Christian Church they were condemned as Heretics. Cool

One man's god is another man's Satan.

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