Australian Politics Forum - Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?

longweekend58

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #105 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 12:33pm

Soren wrote on Apr 26^th, 2011 at 12:32pm:

I think religion is about the metaphysical understaning that binds people together. It is about the scruples and observances of certain metaphysical thing that shape our understanding and therefore our lives.

Borges said something like this: Christians believe god has written two books, the bible and the universe, one to be used to interpret the other.

Pity though that he is thoroughly wrong. Religion is about the pursuit of God. Always has been.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Soren

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #106 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 12:56pm

Well, god is not an entity that can be 'pursued' like a hare. Of course, we can speak of god only with our language that is shaped by the physical world around us and from which we make up our word-pictures - like 'pursuit'. We are Achilles to god's hare - will never catch up.

God, insofar as he exists, is outside what is graspable. There is no direct understanding of god. We can only grasp what we take to be god's manifestations in physical things and in language - that is, nature and reason, one entwined in the other inseparably. The World as Will and Representation.

For many people neither the world nor reason are manifestations of any metaphysical Being. To them Verne would have said: "Look, with all your eyes, look". If they did so, they would percieve something mystical, something ungainsayable, something ineffable. But to some it just never congeals into 'god'. This is not a fault. AFter all, Christians recognise that faith is a gift (grace).

Others posit a god who is like a human being only bigger and immortal. This is a kind of pagan monotheism, a bit of a father-cult. They think this god is knowable like their dad can be known.
But in the end there is nothing to see; one has to take a leap of faith. That's quit a different picture from 'pursuit'.

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Foolosophy

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #107 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 1:01pm

Soren wrote on Apr 26^th, 2011 at 12:56pm:

Well, god is not an entity that can be 'pursued' like a hare. Of course, we can speak of god only with our language that is shaped by the physical world around us and from which we make up our word-pictures - like 'pursuit'. We are Achilles to god's hare - will never catch up.

God, insofar as he exists, is outside what is graspable. There is no direct understanding of god. We can only grasp what we take to be god's manifestations in physical things and in language - that is, nature and reason, one entwined in the other inseparably. The World as Will and Representation.

For many people neither the world nor reason are manifestations of any metaphysical Being. To them Verne would have said: "Look, with all your eyes, look". If they did so, they would percieve something mystical, something ungainsayable, something ineffable. But to some it just never congeals into 'god'. This is not a fault. AFter all, Christians recognise that faith is a gift (grace).

Others posit a god who is like a human being only bigger and immortal. This is a kind of pagan monotheism, a bit of a father-cult. They think this god is knowable like their dad can be known.
But in the end there is nothing to see; one has to take a leap of faith. That's quit a different picture from 'pursuit'.

Good to see you taking things seriously Soren

"he must be back on the medication"

http://thehumanscorch.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/1243271414_black_guy_laughing.gifw=228&h=180

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Please delete Gold Member Offline Please delete this smacking PROFILE Posts: 2936	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #108 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 1:04pm http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=8090710 You might enjoy this one ...
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Please delete Gold Member Offline Please delete this smacking PROFILE Posts: 2936	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #109 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 1:06pm The rapture - 2000 years of "any day now" ... lol.
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longweekend58

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #110 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 1:09pm

Soren wrote on Apr 26^th, 2011 at 12:56pm:

Well, god is not an entity that can be 'pursued' like a hare. Of course, we can speak of god only with our language that is shaped by the physical world around us and from which we make up our word-pictures - like 'pursuit'. We are Achilles to god's hare - will never catch up.

God, insofar as he exists, is outside what is graspable. There is no direct understanding of god. We can only grasp what we take to be god's manifestations in physical things and in language - that is, nature and reason, one entwined in the other inseparably. The World as Will and Representation.

For many people neither the world nor reason are manifestations of any metaphysical Being. To them Verne would have said: "Look, with all your eyes, look". If they did so, they would percieve something mystical, something ungainsayable, something ineffable. But to some it just never congeals into 'god'. This is not a fault. AFter all, Christians recognise that faith is a gift (grace).

Others posit a god who is like a human being only bigger and immortal. This is a kind of pagan monotheism, a bit of a father-cult. They think this god is knowable like their dad can be known.
But in the end there is nothing to see; one has to take a leap of faith. That's quit a different picture from 'pursuit'.

what is it with the pedantic use of words here? the difference between 'a leap of faith' and 'pursuit' is in this case, zero.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50550 At my desk.	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #111 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 2:42pm Helian and Grey, if a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist? Why is this question so hard to answer?
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longweekend58

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #112 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 3:46pm

freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2011 at 2:42pm:

Helian and Grey, if a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist?

Why is this question so hard to answer?

because atheists as a rule avoid the very definitions they love to impose on others. They have a belief system and therefore need to assiduously avoid anything that sounds liek a belief system.

They are just confused.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #113 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 3:51pm

Soren wrote on Apr 26^th, 2011 at 12:56pm:

Well, god is not an entity that can be 'pursued' like a hare. Of course, we can speak of god only with our language that is shaped by the physical world around us and from which we make up our word-pictures - like 'pursuit'. We are Achilles to god's hare - will never catch up.

God, insofar as he exists, is outside what is graspable. There is no direct understanding of god. We can only grasp what we take to be god's manifestations in physical things and in language - that is, nature and reason, one entwined in the other inseparably. The World as Will and Representation.

For many people neither the world nor reason are manifestations of any metaphysical Being. To them Verne would have said: "Look, with all your eyes, look". If they did so, they would percieve something mystical, something ungainsayable, something ineffable. But to some it just never congeals into 'god'. This is not a fault. AFter all, Christians recognise that faith is a gift (grace).

Others posit a god who is like a human being only bigger and immortal. This is a kind of pagan monotheism, a bit of a father-cult. They think this god is knowable like their dad can be known.
But in the end there is nothing to see; one has to take a leap of faith. That's quit a different picture from 'pursuit'.

of COURSE He can be pursued! the word has a few more meanings that 'to chase'!

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Life_goes_on

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #114 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 4:01pm

Quote:

because atheists as a rule avoid the very definitions they love to impose on others. They have a belief system and therefore need to assiduously avoid anything that sounds liek a belief system.

I'm an atheist. I simply don't believe in god. If it makes you feel better by me saying that I believe dieties don't exist, then hell why not?
A singular lack of belief isn't a belief system.

You say you believe in god? I really don't care. I could never imagine myself believing in the existence of a god, but each to their own. Some people seem to thrive on it.

I quite like organised religions as well. To me they seem to do more good than bad.

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"You're just one lucky motherf-cker" - Someone, 5th February 2013

Num num num num.

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Grey

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #115 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 4:07pm

Quote:

longweekend - that is just playing with words to avoid the undeniable truththat atheists are indeed rigid. you are in fact an example of just that. Emphatic DISBELEIF is just as rigid as emphatic BELEIF.

Atheists in fact have their own religion - a rigid disbelief in God.

a pedantic difference at best. Atheists have their own belief set and the difference betwen them and organised religion is ONLY in that they are unorganised.

and they are evangelistic about that 'disbelief'. You could hardly call richard dawkins anything else and most atheists are the same. arrogantly confident, evenaglistically proclaiming the truth of their message. sounds like and smells like religion to me.

I'm convinced, come and join me brothers and sisters. I have a new hobby, come join me, as I don't collect stamps in a rigid and disorderly
kind of way

Quote:

freediver - Helian and Grey, if a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist?

Apparently Helian does not only 'disbelieve' in the existence of God, but he also disbelieves in the existence of people who believe that God does not exist. Whether he believes such people don't exist is obviously a different matter entirely....

Ffs change that record.

Quote:

Muso - I think I'll invent a new term. It's Algit. It refers to somebody who is not really interested in whether or not a God exists, and doesn't lose any sleep on the matter. I'm an Algit.

Not so much of an Algit that you could resist the temptation to post

Quote:

soren - Borges said something like this: Christians believe god has written two books, the bible and the universe, one to be used to interpret the other.

That's another thing. If there was a god would it choose such an inadequate means of comunication as words on a printed page written after an extensive round of chinese whispers? What is it about lawyers god doesn't understand?

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"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #116 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 4:18pm Not believing an absurd proposition that doesn't have an iota of supporting evidence isn't a religion, it's a sensible position. Not being taken in by a Nigerian scam email isn't a religion either; spreading the word that it's a con isn't a religion either, it's an ethical thing to do.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50550 At my desk.	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #117 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 4:19pm If it is such a sensible position, why are you afraid to talk about it? Helian and Grey, if a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist?
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Sappho

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #118 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 4:36pm

freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2011 at 4:19pm:

Helian and Grey, if a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist?

Why are you using the singular and not the plural of God? And since you refer to a single God... which God would that be?

As I understand things, Atheism refers to a disbelief in deities. Admittedly, it was once contrast only with the theism of Abraham's God so that atheism was the disbelief in Abraham's God... but has moved on from that to become a more general claim.

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"Love is a cunning weaver of fantasies and fables."

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #119 - Apr 26^th, 2011 at 5:02pm The 'gods' are limited by the fact that they are many. If there are many then there has to be One that rules them all, as it were.
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