Australian Politics Forum - Is Aunty moving too far right?

Big Donger

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Re: Is Aunty moving too far right?
Reply #75 - Jul 7^th, 2011 at 10:15am

Soren wrote on Jul 6^th, 2011 at 9:15pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 6^th, 2011 at 3:36pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 6^th, 2011 at 3:29pm:

You say that every side in a political debate only wants to crush its opponets and grind their noses in the dirt.
You are saying this in a political debate.
By your own reckoning, then, your aim is to crush Yadda and grind his nose in the dirt.
Your effort is feeble for that purpose.
Unless, of course you are NOT debating Yadda.
But what are you doing posting in a political debate.
Just to grind your nose into it: why do I need to spell out your own theory to you?

At this point I should say namaste
but
I won't.
So
there.

nameste

(what the hell)

If Yadda is honest he'll realize his views are merely one among thousands of views.

Do you accept the same for your views - one among thousands, with no particular validity? If so - why hold it?

Or do you think you are right?

He is right - no - wrong!

Really, though, there are not thousands of views. There's only about two or three.

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Is Aunty moving too far right?
Reply #76 - Jul 7^th, 2011 at 4:08pm

Soren wrote on Jul 6^th, 2011 at 9:15pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 6^th, 2011 at 3:36pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 6^th, 2011 at 3:29pm:

You say that every side in a political debate only wants to crush its opponets and grind their noses in the dirt.
You are saying this in a political debate.
By your own reckoning, then, your aim is to crush Yadda and grind his nose in the dirt.
Your effort is feeble for that purpose.
Unless, of course you are NOT debating Yadda.
But what are you doing posting in a political debate.
Just to grind your nose into it: why do I need to spell out your own theory to you?

At this point I should say namaste
but
I won't.
So
there.

nameste

(what the hell)

If Yadda is honest he'll realize his views are merely one among thousands of views.

Do you accept the same for your views - one among thousands, with no particular validity? If so - why hold it?

Or do you think you are right?

In regards to morality and politics, it all comes down to power. Whoever controls the mechanisms of right and wrong, shame, guilt, reward, punishment, is right.
There's no right and wrong morality lying dormant beneath the flux of phenomena, there is only the imposition of one's will on the other.

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« Last Edit: Jul 7^th, 2011 at 4:20pm by Postmodern Trendoid III »

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Is Aunty moving too far right?
Reply #77 - Jul 7^th, 2011 at 4:22pm

Big Donger wrote on Jul 6^th, 2011 at 5:25pm:

Yadda is right. All liberals, athiests and humanists are wrong. However, he is also wrong because Yadda is not right either.

We are all wrong.

Can you be wrong and right at the same time?

I never studied analytic philosophy, but it would seem that you can.

As a continental man, I always thought that we are always wrong, but in this case Yadda could not be right about the atheists, liberals and humanists being wrong, but be wrong too.

As you can see, it is very hard to be right.

Yadda is righteous, by the way, which is not the same as being right. That's something else entirely.

Right, wrong, whatever, it's all perspective.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Is Aunty moving too far right? Reply #78 - Jul 7^th, 2011 at 6:16pm That's just your biased opinion, one of thousands. Or three. The point, though, is that you cannot maintain a relativists 'perspective' without thereby immediately rendering your own argument suprefluous as no more than a personal perspective.
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Postmodern Trendoid III Gold Member Offline Posts: 10300 Gender:	Re: Is Aunty moving too far right? Reply #79 - Jul 8^th, 2011 at 4:29pm So you're saying there's an absolute morality lying dormant somewhere beneath the ever changing notions of morality? Platonism has been thoroughly refuted.
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Soren

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Re: Is Aunty moving too far right?
Reply #80 - Jul 11^th, 2011 at 4:06pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 8^th, 2011 at 4:29pm:

So you're saying there's an absolute morality lying dormant somewhere beneath the ever changing notions of morality?

Er.... no, I am not saying that. What I am saying is that you cannot maintain a relativists 'perspective' without thereby immediately rendering your own argument suprefluous as no more than a personal perspective.

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Postmodern Trendoid III Gold Member Offline Posts: 10300 Gender:	Re: Is Aunty moving too far right? Reply #81 - Jul 11^th, 2011 at 4:29pm In regards to my moral views, yes they are just perspectives. Just as everyone elses is.
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Soren

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Re: Is Aunty moving too far right?
Reply #82 - Jul 11^th, 2011 at 5:03pm

Well, the whole point of having morals is that they aren't just for you/about you. To say that everyone's views are just perspectives, no better or worse than any other, is a recipe for paralysis.
The whole point is that you are taken out of your narrow self-referential perspective. That's what education is about also, by the way.

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Is Aunty moving too far right?
Reply #83 - Jul 11^th, 2011 at 5:22pm

While moral views are perspectives, people still believe that the perspective they hold is better than the alternatives. People take the moral perspective they do because it benefits them in some way; hence, there is a great deal of egotism in one's moral views. Selflessness is often the exception, not the rule. This is why I singled out Yadaa here. He tries to bring himself across as some kind of truth holder, but his moral views benefit him in some way; they are psycho-physiological manifestations of his soul that project his egotism.
In fact, to take the projector out of the moral perspective one espouses is what is called "the view from nowhere". Hence, it's a logical fallacy to claim that one escapes perspectives.
This is why some people gravitate toward Labor, others toward the Liberals, others the Greens, others God etc. because each has a doctrine that best expresses the personal perspective of the projector.
You can tell a lot about a person by the group he gravitates toward.

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Grey

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Re: Is Aunty moving too far right?
Reply #84 - Jul 11^th, 2011 at 5:37pm

Quote:

Karnal - Really, though, there are not thousands of views. There's only about two or three.

hahahahaha What dimension are you living in? Shuffle around the tree Karnal, how many views? Every fraction of a fraction is a different tree. Don't stop there, there's the view from afar from very afar from extremely close, the view from above and the view from below, the view from sitting in the canopy. in different places.

Don't you see? It's ALL like that. The views are infinite.

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"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

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Soren

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Re: Is Aunty moving too far right?
Reply #85 - Jul 11^th, 2011 at 10:14pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 11^th, 2011 at 5:22pm:

While moral views are perspectives, people still believe that the perspective they hold is better than the alternatives. People take the moral perspective they do because it benefits them in some way; hence, there is a great deal of egotism in one's moral views. Selflessness is often the exception, not the rule. This is why I singled out Yadaa here. He tries to bring himself across as some kind of truth holder, but his moral views benefit him in some way; they are psycho-physiological manifestations of his soul that project his egotism.
In fact, to take the projector out of the moral perspective one espouses is what is called "the view from nowhere". Hence, it's a logical fallacy to claim that one escapes perspectives.
This is why some people gravitate toward Labor, others toward the Liberals, others the Greens, others God etc. because each has a doctrine that best expresses the personal perspective of the projector.
You can tell a lot about a person by the group he gravitates toward.

Brilliant. So what are the psycho-physiological manifestations of your soul that project your egotism and bring you psychological or physical benefits? Is it just the bringing yourself across as some kind of truth holder?

But if your view is no different from anybody else's on the subject (an ego boost) - why should people bother listening to you in particular?

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Soren

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Re: Is Aunty moving too far right?
Reply #86 - Jul 11^th, 2011 at 10:17pm

Grey wrote on Jul 11^th, 2011 at 5:37pm:

Quote:

Karnal - Really, though, there are not thousands of views. There's only about two or three.

hahahahaha What dimension are you living in? Shuffle around the tree Karnal, how many views? Every fraction of a fraction is a different tree. Don't stop there, there's the view from afar from very afar from extremely close, the view from above and the view from below, the view from sitting in the canopy. in different places.

Don't you see? It's ALL like that. The views are infinite.

The views may be infinite in number but they are not interchangable, that is to say, they are not equal - in relevance or importance or what they reveal or indeed in any other aspect.

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Grey

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Re: Is Aunty moving too far right?
Reply #87 - Jul 12^th, 2011 at 11:06am

Soren wrote on Jul 11^th, 2011 at 10:17pm:

Grey wrote on Jul 11^th, 2011 at 5:37pm:

Quote:

Karnal - Really, though, there are not thousands of views. There's only about two or three.

hahahahaha What dimension are you living in? Shuffle around the tree Karnal, how many views? Every fraction of a fraction is a different tree. Don't stop there, there's the view from afar from very afar from extremely close, the view from above and the view from below, the view from sitting in the canopy. in different places.

Don't you see? It's ALL like that. The views are infinite.

The views may be infinite in number but they are not interchangable, that is to say, they are not equal - in relevance or importance or what they reveal or indeed in any other aspect.

Oh yes they are!

What is a view? A view is a looking at...- A mexican riding a bicycle seen from above

Only when you have viewed the Mexican, (or a tree) from all possible views in all possible dimensions do you have an accurate picture. This is true of issues. The more views (opinions + facts) you collect, the more chance you have of making a reasoned assessment or decision. A person who takes one view and excludes all others is a bigot.

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"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

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Postmodern Trendoid III Gold Member Offline Posts: 10300 Gender:	Re: Is Aunty moving too far right? Reply #88 - Jul 12^th, 2011 at 12:46pm Quote: Soren wrote So what are the psycho-physiological manifestations of your soul that project your egotism and bring you psychological or physical benefits? That's for my opponents to find out.
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Soren

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Re: Is Aunty moving too far right?
Reply #89 - Jul 12^th, 2011 at 1:02pm

Grey wrote on Jul 12^th, 2011 at 11:06am:

Soren wrote on Jul 11^th, 2011 at 10:17pm:

Grey wrote on Jul 11^th, 2011 at 5:37pm:

Quote:

Karnal - Really, though, there are not thousands of views. There's only about two or three.

hahahahaha What dimension are you living in? Shuffle around the tree Karnal, how many views? Every fraction of a fraction is a different tree. Don't stop there, there's the view from afar from very afar from extremely close, the view from above and the view from below, the view from sitting in the canopy. in different places.

Don't you see? It's ALL like that. The views are infinite.

The views may be infinite in number but they are not interchangable, that is to say, they are not equal - in relevance or importance or what they reveal or indeed in any other aspect.

Oh yes they are!

What is a view? A view is a looking at...- A mexican riding a bicycle seen from above

http://www.hamiltonpruim.co.uk/blog/mexican.jpg

Only when you have viewed the Mexican, (or a tree) from all possible views in all possible dimensions do you have an accurate picture. This is true of issues. The more views (opinions + facts) you collect, the more chance you have of making a reasoned assessment or decision. A person who takes one view and excludes all others is a bigot.

How the bugger do you know it's a Mexican when you've had only one view??

You and Time just crap on without realising that you are refuting yourselves with every post.

But you probably sense it, that's why you bandy the the worrd 'bigot' too readily - it's a a shorthand for 'I can't think of a reason so I'll just assert something and hope it'll bamboozle them".

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