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Fukushima - Consequences? (Read 102635 times)
muso
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #75 - Mar 29th, 2011 at 9:25am
 
Some details of radiological consequences, including detailed figures on exposures of the affected workers, who were released from medical care.

http://www.slideshare.net/iaea/technical-briefing-march-28

The contamination of the water in the basement and tunnel is now the major concern. They have asked for help from the French Nuclear authorities.

Let's hope they don't bring in the French Military though Smiley

I just have bad memories of the French Military's approach to an ammonia leak from a refrigerant tank near Dakar, Senegal. They decided to blow it up. Consequently over 250 people were killed. A similar incident that happened in metropolitan Brisbane resulted in no casualties. There they slowly released the contents over a week.
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Equitist
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #76 - Mar 29th, 2011 at 9:51am
 



Notwithstanding the obvious gravity of this situation, I couldn't help but laugh at this witty gem, courtesy of the twittersphere: -

Quote:
#
Twitter -
144
2 minutes ago
#
‎      
fromEssex‎ As radiation levels continue to rise, Japan have now renamed the area around the nuclear reactor Oh Fukushima!



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Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!
 
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #77 - Mar 29th, 2011 at 10:10am
 


muso wrote on Mar 29th, 2011 at 9:25am:
Some details of radiological consequences, including detailed figures on exposures of the affected workers, who were released from medical care.

http://www.slideshare.net/iaea/technical-briefing-march-28

The contamination of the water in the basement and tunnel is now the major concern. They have asked for help from the French Nuclear authorities.

Let's hope they don't bring in the French Military though Smiley

I just have bad memories of the French Military's approach to an ammonia leak from a refrigerant tank near Dakar, Senegal. They decided to blow it up. Consequently over 250 people were killed. A similar incident that happened in metropolitan Brisbane resulted in no casualties. There they slowly released the contents over a week.

 



Thanks for the link, Muso - I don't understand why they are dealing with 1-2 day old data in some instances...

Surely, it is imperative that yesterday's data be released ASAP!?

Meantime, this other info was on the same site: -

http://www.slideshare.net/iaea/japan-monday28final

http://www.slideshare.net/iaea/summary-of-reactor-unit-status-at-28-march-0500-u...


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« Last Edit: Mar 29th, 2011 at 10:20am by Equitist »  

Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!
 
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Foolosophy
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #78 - Mar 29th, 2011 at 10:16am
 
muso wrote on Mar 29th, 2011 at 9:25am:
Some details of radiological consequences, including detailed figures on exposures of the affected workers, who were released from medical care.

http://www.slideshare.net/iaea/technical-briefing-march-28

The contamination of the water in the basement and tunnel is now the major concern. They have asked for help from the French Nuclear authorities.

Let's hope they don't bring in the French Military though Smiley

I just have bad memories of the French Military's approach to an ammonia leak from a refrigerant tank near Dakar, Senegal. They decided to blow it up. Consequently over 250 people were killed. A similar incident that happened in metropolitan Brisbane resulted in no casualties. There they slowly released the contents over a week.  


Remember this is a corporate nuclear waste mess whose bill will be covered by the tax payer
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mozzaok
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #79 - Mar 29th, 2011 at 11:41am
 
muso wrote on Mar 23rd, 2011 at 8:22am:
Equitist wrote on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 11:13pm:
It's really hard to imagine any one substance willingly in use by humans that could take months to be artificially cooled and around 15 years to be mostly cleaned up after a single industrial accident...



I can imagine emissions of carbon dioxide killing more people over the next 200 years than all the radioactive accidents in history.

Foolosophy, which do you think has the most serious far reaching consequences?

Fukushima or the burning of fossil fuels.



That is absolutely the crux question facing us, and yet we see the overwhelming majority of people agreeing that we must choose one or the other, and any who promote that we make any serious attempt to reduce our energy consumption are openly vilified as extremists trying to destroy society.

Funny old things, people are.
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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!
 
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Foolosophy
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #80 - Mar 29th, 2011 at 12:10pm
 
muso,

which of these three energy options do you feel will kill more people over the next 200 years?

solar thermal energy
Fukushima
fossil fuels

(I can ask loaded enatrapment questions too you know)

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muso
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #81 - Mar 29th, 2011 at 1:25pm
 
LOL - touché. Probably fossil fuels will win hands down. Now if you drive a conventional internal combustion vehicle, how does it feel contributing towards all those future deaths?  Wink

- and how many of those deaths could we avoid by switching to options like nuclear power, which have the lowest injury and fatality rates of all conventional power generation methods?
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« Last Edit: Mar 29th, 2011 at 1:30pm by muso »  

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muso
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #82 - Mar 29th, 2011 at 1:35pm
 
Foolosophy wrote on Mar 29th, 2011 at 10:16am:
muso wrote on Mar 29th, 2011 at 9:25am:
Some details of radiological consequences, including detailed figures on exposures of the affected workers, who were released from medical care.

http://www.slideshare.net/iaea/technical-briefing-march-28

The contamination of the water in the basement and tunnel is now the major concern. They have asked for help from the French Nuclear authorities.

Let's hope they don't bring in the French Military though Smiley

I just have bad memories of the French Military's approach to an ammonia leak from a refrigerant tank near Dakar, Senegal. They decided to blow it up. Consequently over 250 people were killed. A similar incident that happened in metropolitan Brisbane resulted in no casualties. There they slowly released the contents over a week.  


Remember this is a corporate nuclear waste mess whose bill will be covered by the tax payer


By the Japanese Tax payer? Maybe to some extent.  I don't know their system. Generally in Queensland, the company ends up with the bill (user pays system).

There is not much difference between a chemical spill and a radiological incident, and I have attended many chemical spills. I've been trained to respond to radiological emergencies too.  It has been a few years, so we'll probably get a refresher this year some time.
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Foolosophy
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #83 - Mar 29th, 2011 at 3:26pm
 
muso wrote on Mar 29th, 2011 at 1:25pm:
LOL - touché. Probably fossil fuels will win hands down. Now if you drive a conventional internal combustion vehicle, how does it feel contributing towards all those future deaths?  Wink

- and how many of those deaths could we avoid by switching to options like nuclear power, which have the lowest injury and fatality rates of all conventional power generation methods?


just over 23,000 Australian die every year from alcohol related diseases and abuse.

muso,

If you were relatively close to a breached nuclear reactor core, what sort of radiation levels would your Geiger COunter be measuring?

WOuld 10 million times the background level be a ball park reading depending on how close you got? Something like what TEPCO released to the public and had to withdraw when the Japanese Government considered it too ALARMING for the public to handle emotionaly?

cheers
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perceptions_now
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #84 - Mar 29th, 2011 at 3:28pm
 
muso wrote on Mar 29th, 2011 at 1:35pm:
Foolosophy wrote on Mar 29th, 2011 at 10:16am:
muso wrote on Mar 29th, 2011 at 9:25am:
Some details of radiological consequences, including detailed figures on exposures of the affected workers, who were released from medical care.

http://www.slideshare.net/iaea/technical-briefing-march-28

The contamination of the water in the basement and tunnel is now the major concern. They have asked for help from the French Nuclear authorities.

Let's hope they don't bring in the French Military though Smiley

I just have bad memories of the French Military's approach to an ammonia leak from a refrigerant tank near Dakar, Senegal. They decided to blow it up. Consequently over 250 people were killed. A similar incident that happened in metropolitan Brisbane resulted in no casualties. There they slowly released the contents over a week.  


Remember this is a corporate nuclear waste mess whose bill will be covered by the tax payer


By the Japanese Tax payer? Maybe to some extent.  I don't know their system. Generally in Queensland, the company ends up with the bill (user pays system).

There is not much difference between a chemical spill and a radiological incident, and I have attended many chemical spills. I've been trained to respond to radiological emergencies too.  It has been a few years, so we'll probably get a refresher this year some time.


Remember, the old one about, SIZE DOES MATTER!

If you are taking about something relatively small, then that would usually be picked up by individual businesses.

However, depending on the organization, even then they may well be able to pass the costs onto the public.

That said, once these events move into the size of a Katrina hurricane, Australian Floods, Christchurch earthquake, Japanese earthquake/tsunami/nuclear & the daddy of the all, the current GFC, then the Public are the ones who wear the final costs.

The final GFC bailout costs that the Public will pay for, will be counted into the many Trillons of $'s or Amero's or Renminbi or Amchindia$ or whatever the Global currency reverts to, after the US$ collapses.

I would be surprised if, TEPCO is not bailed out by the public purse, in one way, shape or form and therefore that Public pays!

It does need to be pointed out that the timing of the Japanese earthquake/tsunami/nuclear problems, was absolutely terrible in an Economic sense, as they are in the middle of their Baby Boomer Bust  and these recent events will likely push them into a severe Recession, come Depression, with flow on ramifications for Global Economics!

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muso
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #85 - Mar 29th, 2011 at 3:40pm
 
Foolosophy wrote on Mar 29th, 2011 at 3:26pm:
muso wrote on Mar 29th, 2011 at 1:25pm:
LOL - touché. Probably fossil fuels will win hands down. Now if you drive a conventional internal combustion vehicle, how does it feel contributing towards all those future deaths?  Wink

- and how many of those deaths could we avoid by switching to options like nuclear power, which have the lowest injury and fatality rates of all conventional power generation methods?


just over 23,000 Australian die every year from alcohol related diseases and abuse.

muso,

If you were relatively close to a breached nuclear reactor core, what sort of radiation levels would your Geiger COunter be measuring?

WOuld 10 million times the background level be a ball park reading depending on how close you got? Something like what TEPCO released to the public and had to withdraw when the Japanese Government considered it too ALARMING for the public to handle emotionaly?

cheers


It depends what you mean by breached. If it was just cracked (and after all the RPV's seem to be holding water for the most part) then the radiation dose would be coming from the water. If it was totally breached (as in Chernobyl) there is no way that anybody could have stepped anywhere near it. An exposed reactor core would be putting out around 300- 1000 Sieverts per hour. (300,000- 1,000,000 mSv/hr). Now the two workers whose feet was exposed to radiation received localised (feet) exposures of 2000- 3000 mSv. If they were exposed to the reactor core, they would be dead after about 10 minutes.  

Given that there has been some damage to the fuel rods, I would expect readings of around 500uSv/hr to 1000uSv/hr in the water, because it would be very high in Cesium hydroxide, which is extremely soluble.  

My point is that the basement would be totally flooded out and there would be no way of keeping water in the reactor if the core was grossly exposed.  Apart from that, steam would not be able to build up pressure, and several independant bodies have talked about steam pressures in each of the reactors.  

Reading between the lines, I suspect that the leak is somewhere between a few drops per second and a trickle.  

Here is the NISA release on the radioactivity of the water:

http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/files/en20110325-6.pdf

Regarding the result of concentration measurement in the stagnant water on the basement floor of the turbine building of Unit 1 of Fukushima Dai-ichi Nuclear Power Station


Radioactive Nuclide  Concentration (Bq/cm3)
Cl-38                          1.6×10^6
As-74                          3.9×10^2
Y-91                            5.2×10^4
I-131                           2.1×10^5
Cs-134                        1.6×10^5
Cs136                         1.7×10^4
Cs-137                        1.8×10^6
La-140                         3.4×10^2

It's interesting to note that Uranium was not detected. Chlorine -38 has a half life measured in minutes.
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« Last Edit: Mar 29th, 2011 at 4:00pm by muso »  

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Foolosophy
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #86 - Mar 29th, 2011 at 4:05pm
 
muso wrote on Mar 29th, 2011 at 3:40pm:
Foolosophy wrote on Mar 29th, 2011 at 3:26pm:
muso wrote on Mar 29th, 2011 at 1:25pm:
LOL - touché. Probably fossil fuels will win hands down. Now if you drive a conventional internal combustion vehicle, how does it feel contributing towards all those future deaths?  Wink

- and how many of those deaths could we avoid by switching to options like nuclear power, which have the lowest injury and fatality rates of all conventional power generation methods?


just over 23,000 Australian die every year from alcohol related diseases and abuse.

muso,

If you were relatively close to a breached nuclear reactor core, what sort of radiation levels would your Geiger COunter be measuring?

WOuld 10 million times the background level be a ball park reading depending on how close you got? Something like what TEPCO released to the public and had to withdraw when the Japanese Government considered it too ALARMING for the public to handle emotionaly?

cheers


It depends what you mean by breached. If it was just cracked (and after all the RPV's seem to be holding water for the most part) then the radiation dose would be coming from the water. If it was totally breached (as in Chernobyl) there is no way that anybody could have stepped anywhere near it. An exposed reactor core would be putting out around 300 Sieverts per hour. (300,000 mSv/hr). Now the two workers whose feet was exposed to radiation received localised (feet) exposures of 2000- 3000 mSv. If they were exposed to the reactor core, they would be dead after about 10 minutes.  

Given that there has been some damage to the fuel rods, I would expect readings of around 500uSv/hr to 1000uSv/hr in the water, because it would be very high in Cesium hydroxide, which is extremely soluble.  

My point is that the basement would be totally flooded out and there would be no way of keeping water in the reactor if the core was grossly exposed.  Apart from that, steam would not be able to build up pressure, and several independant bodies have talked about steam pressures in each of the reactors.  

Reading between the lines, I suspect that the leak is somewhere between a few drops per second and a trickle.  

Here is the NISA release on the radioactivity of the water:

http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/files/en20110325-6.pdf

Regarding the result of concentration measurement in the stagnant water on the basement floor of the turbine building of Unit 1 of Fukushima Dai-ichi Nuclear Power Station


Radioactive Nuclide  Concentration (Bq/cm3)
Cl-38                          1.6×10^6
As-74                          3.9×10^2
Y-91                            5.2×10^4
I-131                           2.1×10^5
Cs-134                        1.6×10^5
Cs136                         1.7×10^4
Cs-137                        1.8×10^6
La-140                         3.4×10^2

It's interesting to note that Uranium was not detected.



One of the problems of using sea water no doubt. You introduce a cocktail of anions and cations that are being bombarded by high energy neutrons and other particles etc

You mentioned 300,000 mS per hour

How may times above normal radiation level is that? (LOL)

What you have in Fukushima is a nuclear waste dump.

This is the inherent problem with nuclear power plants - when something actuially DOES go wrong, the repurcussions are infinitely more severe than any other industrial accident (even if the initial death and injury toll isn't apparent in number terms).

I will paraphrase the Independent British Nuclear Engineering Consultant John Large

"....When constructing these plants, nuclear power plant designers, and that includes myself, gamble with the safety of the public and the environment. We balance economics with scenarios that can happen but are remote. The Titanic was designed to be unsinkable but still sank before it even reached port on its maiden voyage"  
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muso
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #87 - Mar 29th, 2011 at 4:05pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Mar 29th, 2011 at 3:28pm:
If you are taking about something relatively small, then that would usually be picked up by individual businesses.

However, depending on the organization, even then they may well be able to pass the costs onto the public.

That said, once these events move into the size of a Katrina hurricane, Australian Floods, Christchurch earthquake, Japanese earthquake/tsunami/nuclear & the daddy of the all, the current GFC, then the Public are the ones who wear the final costs.

The final GFC bailout costs that the Public will pay for, will be counted into the many Trillons of $'s or Amero's or Renminbi or Amchindia$ or whatever the Global currency reverts to, after the US$ collapses.

I would be surprised if, TEPCO is not bailed out by the public purse, in one way, shape or form and therefore that Public pays!

[/b]


TEPCO is not exactly strapped for funds.
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muso
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #88 - Mar 29th, 2011 at 4:11pm
 
Foolosophy wrote on Mar 29th, 2011 at 4:05pm:
One of the problems of using sea water no doubt. You introduce a cocktail of anions and cations that are being bombarded by high energy neutrons and other particles etc

You mentioned 300,000 mS per hour

How may times above normal radiation level is that? (LOL)
 


You mean safe limits or background? Background in Japan is about 0.3uSv/ Hr. 300,000 mSv/ hour is about a billion times that. Safe limits depend on total dose, and then it becomes complicated at high acute doses.

(300,000mSv is 300,000,000 uSv. Divide that by 0.3 and you get a billion)

Those figures were rough estimates. It depends on the distance. The inverse square law applies.
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #89 - Mar 29th, 2011 at 4:16pm
 
muso wrote on Mar 29th, 2011 at 4:05pm:
perceptions_now wrote on Mar 29th, 2011 at 3:28pm:
If you are taking about something relatively small, then that would usually be picked up by individual businesses.

However, depending on the organization, even then they may well be able to pass the costs onto the public.

That said, once these events move into the size of a Katrina hurricane, Australian Floods, Christchurch earthquake, Japanese earthquake/tsunami/nuclear & the daddy of the all, the current GFC, then the Public are the ones who wear the final costs.

The final GFC bailout costs that the Public will pay for, will be counted into the many Trillons of $'s or Amero's or Renminbi or Amchindia$ or whatever the Global currency reverts to, after the US$ collapses.

I would be surprised if, TEPCO is not bailed out by the public purse, in one way, shape or form and therefore that Public pays!

[/b]


TEPCO is not exactly strapped for funds.


I wonder why?

Funny how even though these big Corporations are pulling in enormous profits they still feel its valid to falsify safety reports to the international and Japanese Atomic regulatory bodies.

In the corporate world, the worker is an expense item - a consumable, an item that needs to be minimised on the annula balance sheet.

The CEOS however are corporate assets and must be funded and fondled to the very limit.

This is the Corpocracy that we are enslaved by.

And the corporation also externalises its detrimental effects on humans, society and the environment. In fact these are referred to as "externatlities" on their balance sheet.

The worse that can happen to a corporation is that it is consumed by another or ti disolves onto receivership so as to avoid paying its shareholders the money they invested.

The corpocracy continues
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