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Fukushima - Consequences? (Read 102551 times)
muso
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #405 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 2:48pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 2:35pm:
muso wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 1:32pm:
Because it has been emitting radiation for a month, apparently. That triggers the INES 7 rating.


Really?

Where do you get that from?

The only reference I can see, is -
• Major release of radioactive material with widespread health and environmental effects requiring implementation of planned and extended countermeasures.

If there is a 1 month criteria on emitting radiation, for INES 7, then it would have been obvious that was going to happen, pretty much from day 1, but it hasn't been mentioned?  



There is, but the rating of 7 was on the initial event. It doesn't mean that the situation has deteriorated. Each reactor is rated as a 5 and the overall plant is rated as a 7.  It's still a preliminary assessment. If you want more information, the INES Users Handbook is available free online.

http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/publications/PDF/INES-2009_web.pdf

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Lisa Jones
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #406 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 2:50pm
 
Japan has lost control of the situation (that much is clear) and has been polluting the ocean for weeks now.

Is it safe to buy/eat fish etc?

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

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Foolosophy
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #407 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 2:59pm
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 2:50pm:
Japan has lost control of the situation (obviously) and has been polluting the ocean for weeks now.

Is it safe to buy/eat fish etc?



Radioactive nucleotides will be moving upt he food chain via the bioaccumulation route.

so dangerous isotopes will make their way up from algae and water filter eaters to small fish and larger fish and mammals. And the concentration increases along the food chain.

And remember fish like moving around - espcially tuna, whales, etc

We are not immune from this - especially seeing how long these istopes can linegr in the environment

And if there is even modest amounts of Plutonium and Uranium released then the health issues will still be discussed for many hundreds of thousands of years.

In the case of Uranium 238, the Sun will turn into a red giant in several billion years and scorch the planet to a cinder, AND the U-238 will still be around.

Humansa re very intelluigent animals - they have even worked out a way to destroy everyhting on this planet

The Ancient Greeks discussed this very thing over 2500 years ago
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muso
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #408 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 3:00pm
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 2:50pm:
Japan has lost control of the situation (that much is clear) and has been polluting the ocean for weeks now.

Is it safe to buy/eat fish etc?



I wouldn't be buying fish or seafood from  Japan.  There are restrictions in force anyway.

Anywhere outside that area, the risk is negligible. You'd have a much higher risk of contracting lung cancer from passive smoking (assuming nobody in your house smokes).
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Lisa Jones
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #409 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 3:02pm
 
How sad to see that our generation has s.hat and abused our environment to such a disgusting degree.

What sort of legacy are we going to leave our children?

Makes me feel ashamed.
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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)
 
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Foolosophy
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #410 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 3:03pm
 
Lisa.

Fish swim from the northern hemisphere to the southern hemisphere as a matter of routine for feedind and spawing etc

I would Watch that next tuna salad very carefully

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Lisa Jones
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #411 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 3:04pm
 
muso wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 3:00pm:
Lisa Jones wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 2:50pm:
Japan has lost control of the situation (that much is clear) and has been polluting the ocean for weeks now.

Is it safe to buy/eat fish etc?



I wouldn't be buying fish or seafood from  Japan.  There are restrictions in force anyway.

Anywhere outside that area, the risk is negligible. You'd have a much higher risk of contracting lung cancer from passive smoking (assuming nobody in your house smokes).



Muso .. something tells me seafood isn't gonna be healthy to eat anymore.

Some of our seafood that's sold here in Oz .. comes from Asia .. right?
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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)
 
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perceptions_now
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #412 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 3:05pm
 
muso wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 2:48pm:
perceptions_now wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 2:35pm:
muso wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 1:32pm:
Because it has been emitting radiation for a month, apparently. That triggers the INES 7 rating.


Really?

Where do you get that from?

The only reference I can see, is -
• Major release of radioactive material with widespread health and environmental effects requiring implementation of planned and extended countermeasures.

If there is a 1 month criteria on emitting radiation, for INES 7, then it would have been obvious that was going to happen, pretty much from day 1, but it hasn't been mentioned?  



There is, but the rating of 7 was on the initial event. It doesn't mean that the situation has deteriorated. Each reactor is rated as a 5 and the overall plant is rated as a 7.  It's still a preliminary assessment. If you want more information, the INES Users Handbook is available free online.

http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/publications/PDF/INES-2009_web.pdf



According to Minoru Oogoda, an official with Japan's nuclear safety agency, "the agency made the decision because the impact of radiation leaks
had widely spread to the air, vegetables, tap water and the ocean.
"

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2011-04/12/c_13824832.htm

There was no reference to a time component!

Btw, I had previously looked thru the INES Users Handbook and I can not recall any 30 days timeline requirement!
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Foolosophy
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #413 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 3:08pm
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 3:04pm:
muso wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 3:00pm:
Lisa Jones wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 2:50pm:
Japan has lost control of the situation (that much is clear) and has been polluting the ocean for weeks now.

Is it safe to buy/eat fish etc?



I wouldn't be buying fish or seafood from  Japan.  There are restrictions in force anyway.

Anywhere outside that area, the risk is negligible. You'd have a much higher risk of contracting lung cancer from passive smoking (assuming nobody in your house smokes).



Muso .. something tells me seafood isn't gonna be healthy to eat anymore.

Some of our seafood that's sold here in Oz .. comes from Asia .. right?


Almost all the sea food we buy from the major super markets are imported from Asia.

About half the Buramundi for example is grown in Vietnamese agauculture ponds

You will have to grow your own stuff inyoru back yard to be 100% sure - and even then it will be good prudence to have your wion soil analysed

Its all over for the planet as far as healthy eating is concerned - unless you wish to eat Penguins fro the Antarctic
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muso
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #414 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 3:10pm
 
Heavy insoluble metals tend to bioaccumulate. That includes such metals as Uranium and Plutonium, as well as Mercury.

The largest tuna have usually relatively high mercury content (still measured in parts per trillion) and usually fail the EU criteria.
 
It's likely that any significant Uranium or Plutonium release has been avoided in this case (unlike Chernobyl). If it was just on detectable limits on the site itself, then it's unlikely to be detectable above background anywhere else. 

The driving force in Chernobyl was the fact that the core melted down to form a lava en masse. The graphite control rods caught fire and the exhaust gases from the graphite fire carried many heavy radionuclides, including Uranium and Plutonium.

If there is a good thing about Cesium hydroxide, it's the fact that it doesn't readily bioaccumulate.  Iodine bioaccumulates in the thyroid valve, and in certain marine organisms such as shellfish and seaweed.
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muso
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #415 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 3:14pm
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 3:04pm:
muso wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 3:00pm:
Lisa Jones wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 2:50pm:
Japan has lost control of the situation (that much is clear) and has been polluting the ocean for weeks now.

Is it safe to buy/eat fish etc?



I wouldn't be buying fish or seafood from  Japan.  There are restrictions in force anyway.

Anywhere outside that area, the risk is negligible. You'd have a much higher risk of contracting lung cancer from passive smoking (assuming nobody in your house smokes).



Muso .. something tells me seafood isn't gonna be healthy to eat anymore.

Some of our seafood that's sold here in Oz .. comes from Asia .. right?


I'd eat prawns from Vietnam or Thailand. The only danger is the area around Fukushima itself.  Think of the enormous dilution effect. I'm certainly not giving up seafood. I don't eat meat. Seafood is my only compromise.

If you eat a lot of Tuna, the mercury content is a cause for concern over time. I'm already mad, so it won't affect me any more Smiley
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Foolosophy
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #416 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 3:14pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 3:05pm:
muso wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 2:48pm:
perceptions_now wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 2:35pm:
muso wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 1:32pm:
Because it has been emitting radiation for a month, apparently. That triggers the INES 7 rating.


Really?

Where do you get that from?

The only reference I can see, is -
• Major release of radioactive material with widespread health and environmental effects requiring implementation of planned and extended countermeasures.

If there is a 1 month criteria on emitting radiation, for INES 7, then it would have been obvious that was going to happen, pretty much from day 1, but it hasn't been mentioned?  



There is, but the rating of 7 was on the initial event. It doesn't mean that the situation has deteriorated. Each reactor is rated as a 5 and the overall plant is rated as a 7.  It's still a preliminary assessment. If you want more information, the INES Users Handbook is available free online.

http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/publications/PDF/INES-2009_web.pdf



According to Minoru Oogoda, an official with Japan's nuclear safety agency, "the agency made the decision because the impact of radiation leaks
had widely spread to the air, vegetables, tap water and the ocean.
"

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2011-04/12/c_13824832.htm

There was no reference to a time component!

Btw, I had previously looked thru the INES Users Handbook and I can not recall any 30 days timeline requirement!


you are spot on there.

The level 7 rating describes a major nuclear accident which Fukushima is. Its radioactive release has global implications.

This is on a scale far worse than Chernobyl - and it hasnt finished yet.

You cant cool a molten slag of fuel rods due to the basic ratio of surface area to volume being to small. The question now is how far will it melt? will it reach the ground water table?

Chernobyl and fukushima will be epitaphs for future human generations (if we survive) to acknowledge HOW STUPID humans can be.
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muso
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #417 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 3:27pm
 
It has wide ranging implications, as opposed to global implications.

The "1 month" was from a news report on ABC National at lunchtime and they were directly quoting the NRSI in Japan. I shouldn't quote news reports. I assumed it was in the guidelines somewhere.

Maybe it's an internal criterion that they used to define "wide ranging"
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muso
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #418 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 3:34pm
 
Regarding Fuel rods. The initial temperature of the 'corium' at Chernobyl was 2600 degrees C. This cooled to around 1500 degrees within a few minutes, and within a week, it had solidified. You can see pictures of the "Elephants Foot" on the web.

The main problem is the fact that the Uranium in the corium is mobilised when it hits groundwater. It forms sodium uranyl carbonate, which is soluble. Plutonium can also form soluble plutonyl complexes, but they are quickly oxidised to insoluble species. Fortunately it's about 10,000 times less mobile than Uranium, because the cancer risk associated with Pu-239 is about 10 times that of Uranium 235.
 
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #419 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 3:39pm
 
Lisa,

Look how a radionuclide such as Radium-226 can bioaccumulate in Australian mussels
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