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Fukushima - Consequences? (Read 102555 times)
muso
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #210 - Apr 3rd, 2011 at 8:22am
 
Foolosophy wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 8:12am:
Everything else becomes an expense, consumable or a liability to that end - including workers. Except for the CEO's who oervsea this psychopathic and sociopathic behaviour. They are rewarded with bonuses and obscene renumeration and redundency packages.


Remuneration. Isn't that weird? I used to make that typo all the time a long time ago.

So you think that our economic system is corrupt? Intrinsically flawed?

Maybe it's not perfect, but it has resulted in wealth and has created  reasonable prosperity for people in general compared to the alternatives. Would you prefer Marxism?
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Foolosophy
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #211 - Apr 3rd, 2011 at 8:32am
 
muso wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 8:22am:
Foolosophy wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 8:12am:
Everything else becomes an expense, consumable or a liability to that end - including workers. Except for the CEO's who oervsea this psychopathic and sociopathic behaviour. They are rewarded with bonuses and obscene renumeration and redundency packages.


Remuneration. Isn't that weird? I used to make that typo all the time a long time ago.

So you think that our economic system is corrupt? Intrinsically flawed?

Maybe it's not perfect, but it has resulted in wealth and has created  reasonable prosperity for people in general compared to the alternatives. Would you prefer Marxism?



The 3 pillars of fascism that emerged in the 20th century were Bolshevism. Nazism and Corporatism.

The issue of economics is a side show. Its to do with the tyrannical slave based system that we live under. Its about power adn the prevention of democracy. To suggest that any country in the world in democratic (even Australia) jsut because there is a mass vote every few years fails to understand what the Greek meaning od the word is.
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Foolosophy
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #212 - Apr 3rd, 2011 at 9:58am
 
oh the pathetic self destructive web that we weave.

By contrast, nuclear utilities in the US have over decades accumulated some 71,862 tons of spent fuel in more than 30 states – the vast majority of it sitting today in pools that are mostly full, according to a recent state-by-state tally by the Associated Press. It's a huge quantity of highly radioactive material equal to a great many Chernobyls' worth of radioactivity, nuclear experts say.

The reason is the lack of a national repository for spent fuel – meaning it must be stored on site – as well as the lack of a coherent nationwide policy, experts told Congress Wednesday.

"From the history of our nuclear power program, storage of spent fuel – between the reactor and the presumed repository – has been an afterthought," said Ernest Moniz, a nuclear expert at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, at a Senate hearing. "It has not really been part of our serious policy discussion about fuel cycle design."


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muso
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #213 - Apr 3rd, 2011 at 10:39am
 
Foolosophy wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 9:58am:
oh the pathetic self destructive web that we weave.

By contrast, nuclear utilities in the US have over decades accumulated some 71,862 tons of spent fuel in more than 30 states – the vast majority of it sitting today in pools that are mostly full, according to a recent state-by-state tally by the Associated Press. It's a huge quantity of highly radioactive material equal to a great many Chernobyls' worth of radioactivity, nuclear experts say.

The reason is the lack of a national repository for spent fuel – meaning it must be stored on site – as well as the lack of a coherent nationwide policy, experts told Congress Wednesday.

"From the history of our nuclear power program, storage of spent fuel – between the reactor and the presumed repository – has been an afterthought," said Ernest Moniz, a nuclear expert at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, at a Senate hearing. "It has not really been part of our serious policy discussion about fuel cycle design."




I know. That's the way it is in the States for the Nuclear Industry and Industry in general. By comparison to the US, our industry is relatively self-regulated.

- but it's not the way it has to be.
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muso
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #214 - Apr 3rd, 2011 at 10:43am
 
Foolosophy wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 8:32am:
The issue of economics is a side show. Its to do with the tyrannical slave based system that we live under. Its about power adn the prevention of democracy. To suggest that any country in the world in democratic (even Australia) jsut because there is a mass vote every few years fails to understand what the Greek meaning od the word is.

Democracy taken to an extreme (aka mob rule) would be very destructive. Our neo-democracy (and it might surprise you to know that I'm very familar with ancient Greek History) is a compromise, and it's about as good as you're going to get. There is no Utopia. 

If the majority of people in the world voted not to do anything about Climate Change would you be happy with that decision? 
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Foolosophy
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #215 - Apr 3rd, 2011 at 11:10am
 
muso wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 10:43am:
Foolosophy wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 8:32am:
The issue of economics is a side show. Its to do with the tyrannical slave based system that we live under. Its about power adn the prevention of democracy. To suggest that any country in the world in democratic (even Australia) jsut because there is a mass vote every few years fails to understand what the Greek meaning od the word is.

Democracy taken to an extreme (aka mob rule) would be very destructive. Our neo-democracy (and it might surprise you to know that I'm very familar with ancient Greek History) is a compromise, and it's about as good as you're going to get. There is no Utopia.  

If the majority of people in the world voted not to do anything about Climate Change would you be happy with that decision?  


I prefer the highest and purest form of democracy - anarchy

it takes great wisdom and honesty to advocate a RULER-LESS society.

(sadly the definition of anarchism has been hijacked and distorted to mean chaos or total disorder)
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muso
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #216 - Apr 3rd, 2011 at 11:22am
 
Foolosophy wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 11:10am:
I prefer the highest and purest form of democracy - anarchy

it takes great wisdom and honesty to advocate a RULER-LESS society.

(sadly the definition of anarchism has been hijacked and distorted to mean chaos or total disorder)


So which model of anarchism do you prefer? The current Libyan model or the current US model ? - or perhaps you prefer a tribalist model.
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perceptions_now
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #217 - Apr 3rd, 2011 at 11:53am
 
muso wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 10:43am:
Foolosophy wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 8:32am:
The issue of economics is a side show. Its to do with the tyrannical slave based system that we live under. Its about power adn the prevention of democracy. To suggest that any country in the world in democratic (even Australia) jsut because there is a mass vote every few years fails to understand what the Greek meaning od the word is.

Democracy taken to an extreme (aka mob rule) would be very destructive. Our neo-democracy (and it might surprise you to know that I'm very familar with ancient Greek History) is a compromise, and it's about as good as you're going to get. There is no Utopia.  

If the majority of people in the world voted not to do anything about Climate Change would you be happy with that decision?  


Well, I agree that the standard perceptions of Economics & Politics, don't do the current situation much justice!

That said, Democracy & Capitalism are still better options, than the others that are currently available.

However, for the survival of mainstream humanity, the current popular concepts, both Political & Economic, will have to change considerably from their mark 1 formats!

For example, the concept of "the market knows best" is absolute CRAP, it can be buried along with its sidekick, "the exponential Economic Growth Fairy".

I must agree that Power is a considerable force, in both Economics & the Political arena, but it finally comes back to the same motivation, which is whats good for me (what do I get out of it) and when do I get it (NOW)!


Btw, sorry if my contributions have been a little intermittent recently, we have had a few distractions.

The major one being, we are now grand parents to a heatlhy 3.7kg baby girl, mum & daughter are doing well!
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perceptions_now
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #218 - Apr 3rd, 2011 at 12:05pm
 
muso wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 8:22am:
Foolosophy wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 8:12am:
Everything else becomes an expense, consumable or a liability to that end - including workers. Except for the CEO's who oervsea this psychopathic and sociopathic behaviour. They are rewarded with bonuses and obscene renumeration and redundency packages.


Remuneration. Isn't that weird? I used to make that typo all the time a long time ago.

So you think that our economic system is corrupt? Intrinsically flawed?


Maybe it's not perfect, but it has resulted in wealth and has created  reasonable prosperity for people in general compared to the alternatives.
Would you prefer Marxism?


Can I suggest the operative word is obscene, when taken in the context of Personal gains, against societal gains or in todays circumstances, LOSSES.

YES! There is no other possible answer.


Well, it is far from perfect and short of some considerable change, where Politics & Economics (read Capitalism) come together, more for the future benefit of humanity, is is quite possible that all may not survive.  
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« Last Edit: Apr 3rd, 2011 at 12:48pm by perceptions_now »  
 
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perceptions_now
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #219 - Apr 3rd, 2011 at 12:19pm
 
Foolosophy wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 8:12am:
muso wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 7:44am:
Foolosophy wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 7:06am:
For example, an analysis by a French energy company revealed far more about the condition of the plant’s reactors than the Japanese have ever described: water levels at the reactor cores dropping by as much as three-quarters, and temperatures in those cores soaring to nearly 5,000 degrees Fahrenheit, hot enough to burn and melt the zirconium casings that protect the fuel rods.

Scientists in Europe and America also know from observing the explosions of hydrogen gas at the plant that the nuclear fuel rods had heated to very dangerous levels, and from radioactive plumes how far the rods had disintegrated. [/i][/b]


Let's give Tepco its due.
.  


Yes lets do that - but with their CEO's in Jail. Remember this criminal corporation falsified safety records to the IAEA only a few years ago which resulted in 17 of their nuclear plants being dhut down.

In fact applying a ciminality label to
[color=#0000ff]corporations
[/color]
is a futile excercise. They
have one responsibility and that's to maximising profit. Its actually illegal for them to do otherwise.


Everything else becomes an expense, consumable or a liability to that end - including workers. Except for the CEO's who oervsee this psychopathic and sociopathic behaviour. They are rewarded with bonuses and obscene renumeration and redundancy packages.

I am not personally against nuclear energy - just the nuclear fusion path. If nuclear fission develops into a viable option then we should look at generating power via this route (in s safe manner if possible)

Nuclear fusion is a stupid way to boil water (Didnt Einstein say that?)


As I have posted previously, I am of the opinion that Nuclear power will have to be part of the medium term Energy mix, for probably at least another 100 years, due to the coming decline of Fossil Fuels.

However, the current situation in Japan, including how it develops & is "resolved", will have a large short term bearing on the Nuclear future of the next 20-30 years, which is a real bitch, because that will also encompass part of the transition away from Fossil Fuels!

The timing couldn't have been worse!  


Btw, Corporations have a requirement to maximise profits, providing what they do is legal and it does maximise profits.
This event has certainty done the opposite of maximising profits for quite a few Corporations & the government and whether all are actings within the confines of the law may only come to light in the future?
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perceptions_now
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #220 - Apr 3rd, 2011 at 12:39pm
 
muso wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 7:44am:
Foolosophy wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 7:06am:
For example, an analysis by a French energy company revealed far more about the condition of the plant’s reactors than the Japanese have ever described: water levels at the reactor cores dropping by as much as three-quarters, and temperatures in those cores soaring to nearly 5,000 degrees Fahrenheit, hot enough to burn and melt the zirconium casings that protect the fuel rods.

Scientists in Europe and America also know from observing the explosions of hydrogen gas at the plant that the nuclear fuel rods had heated to very dangerous levels, and from radioactive plumes how far the rods had disintegrated. [/i][/b]


Let's give Tepco its due. It advised that water levels had been low all the way through this incident.

Some of the first reports indicated low levels of water. This one if from March 12, and subsequent  reports were more specific, talking about half the electrodes being exposed.

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11031228-e.html

I doubt if temperatures got anywhere near as high as 5000 degrees C at any stage.
Remember that the Control Rods were fully inserted.  I suspect that the outer zircaloy cases cracked under the pressure of boiling iodine and other volatiles.  

By the way, one of the factors that increased the intensity of the fire at Chernobyl was the fact that the control rods were made of graphite.  These burned furiously in the mangled wreck of the reactor core, resulting in the release of enormous clouds of exhaust gases carrying radiation across a large part of Northern Europe. In the case of Fukushima they use boron carbide (B4C) rods, which is an extremely hard refractory substance that doesn't burn.  


Yes, let's give TEPCO its due!

It has history, "for not telling the whole truth & nothing but the truth"!

TEPCO also built a Nuclear Plant in a very unstable Earthquake & Tsunami region and therefore they had an onus of responsibility to take all steps possible to make sure the plant was safe.

That said, notwithstanding that there had been a large Japanese Tsunami in the area and others in the region, that exceeded the capacity of the Fukushima sea walls, they DID NOT UPGRADE THEIR MITIGATION LEVELS.  

That's your estimation, there are others (experts & none experts), who have different estimations.
In any event, the containment vessels could well come under much stress at temperatures less than that, particularly if they have already come under stress from the Earthquake/s or the Tsunami!

And, as you would well know, this situation may change abruptly, both for better or for worse, in a very short amount of time! 

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Foolosophy
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #221 - Apr 3rd, 2011 at 12:48pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 12:19pm:
Foolosophy wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 8:12am:
muso wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 7:44am:
Foolosophy wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 7:06am:
For example, an analysis by a French energy company revealed far more about the condition of the plant’s reactors than the Japanese have ever described: water levels at the reactor cores dropping by as much as three-quarters, and temperatures in those cores soaring to nearly 5,000 degrees Fahrenheit, hot enough to burn and melt the zirconium casings that protect the fuel rods.

Scientists in Europe and America also know from observing the explosions of hydrogen gas at the plant that the nuclear fuel rods had heated to very dangerous levels, and from radioactive plumes how far the rods had disintegrated. [/i][/b]


Let's give Tepco its due.
.  


Yes lets do that - but with their CEO's in Jail. Remember this criminal corporation falsified safety records to the IAEA only a few years ago which resulted in 17 of their nuclear plants being dhut down.

In fact applying a ciminality label to
[color=#0000ff]corporations
[/color]
is a futile excercise. They
have one responsibility and that's to maximising profit. Its actually illegal for them to do otherwise.


Everything else becomes an expense, consumable or a liability to that end - including workers. Except for the CEO's who oervsee this psychopathic and sociopathic behaviour. They are rewarded with bonuses and obscene renumeration and redundancy packages.

I am not personally against nuclear energy - just the nuclear fusion path. If nuclear fission develops into a viable option then we should look at generating power via this route (in s safe manner if possible)

Nuclear fusion is a stupid way to boil water (Didnt Einstein say that?)


As I have posted previously, I am of the opinion that Nuclear power will have to be part of the medium term Energy mix, for probably at least another 100 years, due to the coming decline of Fossil Fuels.

However, the current situation in Japan, including how it develops & is "resolved", will have a large short term bearing on the Nuclear future of the next 20-30 years, which is a real bitch, because that will also encompass part of the transition away from Fossil Fuels!

The timing couldn't have been worse!  


Btw, Corporations have a requirement to maximise profits, providing what they do is legal and it does maximise profits.
This event has certainty done the opposite of maximising profits for quite a few Corporations & the government and whether all are actings within the confines of the law may only come to light in the future?


wel my friend the TEPCO way (Asian largest power corporation) was to falsify safety records to the IAEA.

ITs bad enough recognising corruption in say the textile industry or a corporation that makes sports shoes, but for a corporation to falsify safety records relating to a nuclear power plant its far wrose than just corruption.

Why did the TEPCO CEO's falsify safety records in their nuclear plants? WHat was the motivating factor that drove them to do this?

You have to look at what the corporation really is - ITs a facist instrument devised to shut out the public from the decision making process, externalise its destructive effects it has on the environment and on people, act to concentrate wealth an power into unaccountable and unellectable Oligarchs.

And above all, to ensure that the democratic process does not hinder the above activities
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« Last Edit: Apr 3rd, 2011 at 12:57pm by Foolosophy »  
 
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muso
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #222 - Apr 3rd, 2011 at 12:53pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 11:53am:
Btw, sorry if my contributions have been a little intermittent recently, we have had a few distractions.

The major one being, we are now grand parents to a heatlhy 3.7kg baby girl, mum & daughter are doing well![/color][/b]


Congratulations. That's what life is all about really.  Smiley
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perceptions_now
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #223 - Apr 3rd, 2011 at 3:57pm
 
muso wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 6:48am:
Foolosophy wrote on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 11:38pm:
The fukushima area requires a thorough INPEPENDENT radiological analyses of the soil. air and water ways (including the gorund water)

INDEPENDENT means NOBODY from TEPCO, the Japanese government, or the IAEA.

Yes it does.
Are you volunteering for the job?

I think that Australian nuclear scientists would be in a good position to advise because after all we don't have a nuclear industry.  The radiological evaluation needs to involve a systematic evaluation of the real risks as opposed to the headless chook approach of Greenpeace.


Well, even if so called independent observers, such as the IAEA advise on an issue, such as increasing the size of an evacuation area, due to higher radiation, the Japanese government may not accept that advice, as they have already done.
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perceptions_now
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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #224 - Apr 3rd, 2011 at 4:01pm
 
muso wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 12:53pm:
perceptions_now wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 11:53am:
Btw, sorry if my contributions have been a little intermittent recently, we have had a few distractions.

The major one being, we are now grand parents to a heatlhy 3.7kg baby girl, mum & daughter are doing well![/color]


Congratulations. That's what life is all about really.  Smiley


Thank you!

And, you are correct, our first grand child is a much more preferable discussion point, than some other issues!
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