Australian Politics Forum - Fukushima

Equitist Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9632 NSW	Re: Fukushima - Consequences? Reply #195 - Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 6:34pm Hmmnnn.... How does a crack "about 8 inches wide" develop in such a pit!? How long is it - and is it likely to get any bigger!? What else is going on in, around and under the Fuku 2 reactor!? Is the reactor stable, or is this newly-discovered crack a sign of worse to come!?
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Equitist

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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #196 - Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 6:46pm

From an MIT news brief on 30 March...

http://mitnse.com/

Quote:

News Brief, 3/30/11

Plutonium Found in Soil

Soil samples collected from five locations around the Fukushima Daiichi site were found to contain trace amounts of plutonium. These trace amounts are in roughly the same quantities as the amounts left behind by nuclear weapons tests conducted prior to 1980, and are not considered a threat to human health, according to JAIF.
Only two of the sites are believed to contain plutonium originating in the troubled reactors, with the rest being the result of the nuclear weapons tests. It is not known from which reactor the observed plutonium might have come, or how it was deposited in the soil. A companion post will discuss this, and the health effects of plutonium.

Water Accumulations

Contaminated water has accumulated in the basements and turbine rooms of units 1-3, and the basement of unit 4. Efforts are underway to clean up and store this water, preventing it from entering the environment, and allowing crews to continue servicing the electrical connections in the basement of each reactor.

Each reactor building additionally has a trench outside it which is concrete-encased, and holds cables and piping for its associated reactor. The trenches outside units 1-4 have flooded with contaminated water. The trenches do not flow to the ocean, and are currently being sandbagged so that they do not overflow and carry radionuclides elsewhere. TEPCO has released a nuclide analysis of trench 1 (http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/betu11_e/images/110330e2.pdf) which shows that the trench contains low levels of fission products, and no uranium or plutonium. Dose rates at the surface of this trench are around 0.4 milliSievert per hour.

Dose rates at Unit 2’s trench are high, at 1000 milliSieverts per hour. This high dose rate indicates that the water has been in contact with molten fuel for some time. The pathway through which this water made it to the trench is not known at this time.

Measurements have been taken of seawater 30 km from the facility, and have indicated that only fission products, in small quantities, have made their way to the sea. These quantities, in amounts shown here (http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/betu11_e/images/110330e7.pdf) are far too low to impact human health. Fish from the region have been tested, and a have shown levels of Cs-137 at or just above the level of detection. These levels are below those of concern for fish consumption. Experts from the National Research Insitute’s Fisheries Research group say that it’s too early to draw conclusions, as the situation may change rapidly, but that the situation should improve as the radionuclides decay and dilute in seawater.

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mozzaok

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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #197 - Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 7:44pm

Leaking into the bloody ocean??
Oh crap, I have always thought the people promoting nuclear were displaying incredible hubris in assuming they could contain and control a by product that remains toxic for a period exponentially greater than any civilisation on earth has ever lasted, but I am too sad to even give a told ya so, I just hope they can contain it with as little suffering as possible for the emergency workers and their families.

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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!

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muso

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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #198 - Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 7:47pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 5:15pm:

I think you were right Muso....I do owe you an apology....

I now understand what you were going through with the Anthropogenic Climate Change stuff....

Head, meet brick wall.....

I think it's a very political issue. Suddenly the background cancer cases are attributed to Chernobyl.

I wonder what's going on? Every single case of cancer is now attributable to Chernobyl, and very suddenly there are no natural cases.

Well let me see.......Chernobyl was under the control of Moscow, and now it's part of Ukraine, and Ukraine is shaping itself up to join the EU and distancing itself from Russia.

Could be.

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mozzaok Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 6741 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Fukushima - Consequences? Reply #199 - Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 8:05pm I agrre with you muso, that having people make wild claims about x numbers of this that and the other are directly related to a particular event can create more confusion than enlightenment, but I stick to my original principle that nuclear power is a hell of a thing to try and get right by trial and error.
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muso

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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #200 - Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 8:06pm

Equitist wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 6:46pm:

From an MIT news brief on 30 March...

http://mitnse.com/

Quote:

News Brief, 3/30/11

Plutonium Found in Soil

Soil samples collected from five locations around the Fukushima Daiichi site were found to contain trace amounts of plutonium. These trace amounts are in roughly the same quantities as the amounts left behind by nuclear weapons tests conducted prior to 1980, and are not considered a threat to human health, according to JAIF.
Only two of the sites are believed to contain plutonium originating in the troubled reactors, with the rest being the result of the nuclear weapons tests. It is not known from which reactor the observed plutonium might have come, or how it was deposited in the soil. A companion post will discuss this, and the health effects of plutonium.

That confirms what I was saying earlier. If the quantities are extremely low, it will be difficult to carry out Pu 240: Pu 239 ratios, so I wonder how conclusive these results are with regards to origins?

If it definitely came from a reactor, I think it's a fair bet that it came from Unit 3.

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muso

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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #201 - Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 8:11pm

mozzaok wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 7:44pm:

Leaking into the bloody ocean??
Oh crap, I have always thought the people promoting nuclear were displaying incredible hubris in assuming they could contain and control a by product that remains toxic for a period exponentially greater than any civilisation on earth has ever lasted, but I am too sad to even give a told ya so, I just hope they can contain it with as little suffering as possible for the emergency workers and their families.

While it's little consolation, most of the activity is due to Iodine, which is very short-lived and Cesium, which is extremely soluble and will dilute extremely quickly.

I wouldn't be eating Nori that was harvested anywhere near Fukushima, because seaweed accumulates Iodine.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #202 - Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 11:11pm

Equitist wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 3:32pm:

Then there's this: -

Quote:

.

In total, in 1986 nearly 400 million individuals
(nearly 205 million in Europe and 200
million outside Europe) were exposed to radioactive
contamination at a level of 4 kBq/m2
(0.1 Ci/km2).

Yes Thy, and to put that in perspective....
"For example, natural potassium (40K) in a typical human body produces 4,000 disintegrations per second, 4 kBq of activity"

So the normal processes of human existence produce 4kBq per second.....every second of every day......

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Foolosophy

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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #203 - Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 11:38pm

muso wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 8:11pm:

mozzaok wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 7:44pm:

Leaking into the bloody ocean??
Oh crap, I have always thought the people promoting nuclear were displaying incredible hubris in assuming they could contain and control a by product that remains toxic for a period exponentially greater than any civilisation on earth has ever lasted, but I am too sad to even give a told ya so, I just hope they can contain it with as little suffering as possible for the emergency workers and their families.

While it's little consolation, most of the activity is due to Iodine, which is very short-lived and Cesium, which is extremely soluble and will dilute extremely quickly.

I wouldn't be eating Nori that was harvested anywhere near Fukushima, because seaweed accumulates Iodine.

Cesium137 is linked to brain tumours.

It also bioaccumulates in vegetation, animals, fungi etc.

Also need to multiple the half life by at least a factor of 10 so that they decayed level reaches something close to normal background level.

The fukushima area requires a thorough INPEPENDENT radiological analyses of the soil. air and water ways (including the gorund water)

INDEPENDENT means NOBODY from TEPCO, the Japanese government, or the IAEA.

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muso

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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #204 - Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 6:48am

Foolosophy wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 11:38pm:

The fukushima area requires a thorough INPEPENDENT radiological analyses of the soil. air and water ways (including the gorund water)

INDEPENDENT means NOBODY from TEPCO, the Japanese government, or the IAEA.

Yes it does. Are you volunteering for the job?

I think that Australian nuclear scientists would be in a good position to advise because after all we don't have a nuclear industry. The radiological evaluation needs to involve a systematic evaluation of the real risks as opposed to the headless chook approach of Greenpeace.

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« Last Edit: Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 6:57am by muso »

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Foolosophy

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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #205 - Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 7:06am

muso wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 6:48am:

Foolosophy wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 11:38pm:

The fukushima area requires a thorough INPEPENDENT radiological analyses of the soil. air and water ways (including the gorund water)

INDEPENDENT means NOBODY from TEPCO, the Japanese government, or the IAEA.

Yes it does. Are you volunteering for the job?

I think that Australian nuclear scientists would be in a good position to advise because after all we don't have a nuclear industry.

The radiological evaluation needs to involve a systematic evaluation of the real risks as opposed to the headless chook approach of Greenpeace

.

In other words there needs to be a world wide cover up of the real health implications - like Chernobyl. The IAEA will do a very good and honest job I am sure (lol). The WHO will be forbidden to investigate (lol)

muso, read on as the truth unfolds WITH or WITHOUT the Japanese Government and its PUPPET MASTERS, TEPCO and the IAEA

The French foreign Legion has finally done something against their own imperial instincts. There is nowhere to hide in this disaster muso. There only good news is that there is no evidence of a FULL meltdown in any of the reactors

Thanks to the unfamiliar but sophisticated art of atomic forensics, experts around the world have been able to document the situation vividly. Over decades, they have become very good at illuminating the hidden workings of nuclear power plants from afar, turning scraps of information into detailed analyses.

For example, an analysis by a French energy company revealed far more about the condition of the plant’s reactors than the Japanese have ever described: water levels at the reactor cores dropping by as much as three-quarters, and temperatures in those cores soaring to nearly 5,000 degrees Fahrenheit, hot enough to burn and melt the zirconium casings that protect the fuel rods.

Scientists in Europe and America also know from observing the explosions of hydrogen gas at the plant that the nuclear fuel rods had heated to very dangerous levels, and from radioactive plumes how far the rods had disintegrated.

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« Last Edit: Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 7:22am by Foolosophy »

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muso

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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #206 - Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 7:20am

Foolosophy wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 11:38pm:

Cesium137 is linked to brain tumours.

It also bioaccumulates in vegetation, animals, fungi etc.

Also need to multiple the half life by at least a factor of 10 so that they decayed level reaches something close to normal background level.

These facts are correct, but dose is everything. A Cesium 137 source produces beta and gamma radiation (the latter through its daughter Barium-137 which decays in a few minutes.)

Radon gas is a natural source of radiation that accounts for about 80% of the total dose for the general population. It's produced from the decay of Uranium. Whenever we engage in mining activities eg coal, Uranium etc, we release radon. Whenever we burn coal, we release radon. Whenever we burn natural gas, we release radon, sometimes in the home. It's a prime cause of sick building syndrome. Actually the Darwin Gas pipeline has probably the highest Radon concentration I've come across. It also has a helium content measured in the percent range.

Those people who live in high altitude cities, and who fly long distances are subjected to a higher level of cosmogenic radiation, but the effects are exactly the same.

I posted a map of background radiation in the US earlier and somebody asked the question - what was it like in the 1930's before atmospheric detonations of nuclear weapons. Well if you want the correct answer, it was not much different to today. The combined fallout from all nuclear accidents and weapons to date accounts for maybe 1/8 of natural background radiation, less so in higher altitudes.

Of course we can detect the man-made stuff quite easily CS-137 Sr-90 and I-131 didn't exist on Earth before nuclear power.

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Foolosophy

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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #207 - Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 7:39am

muso wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 7:20am:

Foolosophy wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 11:38pm:

Cesium137 is linked to brain tumours.

It also bioaccumulates in vegetation, animals, fungi etc.

Also need to multiple the half life by at least a factor of 10 so that they decayed level reaches something close to normal background level.

These facts are correct,

but dose is everything

. .

I am sure that the TEPCO workers know this.

Apparently their safe exposure limit has been increased from 100 mSv PER YEAR to 250 mSv PER YEAR - just with a stroke of a pen.

Interesting how the US safe exposure limit is 50 mSv per year.

Again, this limit says nothing about what the workers have inhaled or absorbed through their skin etc.

How did the Plutonium get into the soil? However small an amount

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muso

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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #208 - Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 7:44am

Foolosophy wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 7:06am:

For example, an analysis by a French energy company revealed far more about the condition of the plant’s reactors than the Japanese have ever described: water levels at the reactor cores dropping by as much as three-quarters, and temperatures in those cores soaring to nearly 5,000 degrees Fahrenheit, hot enough to burn and melt the zirconium casings that protect the fuel rods.

Scientists in Europe and America also know from observing the explosions of hydrogen gas at the plant that the nuclear fuel rods had heated to very dangerous levels, and from radioactive plumes how far the rods had disintegrated. [/i][/b]

Let's give Tepco its due. It advised that water levels had been low all the way through this incident.

Some of the first reports indicated low levels of water. This one if from March 12, and subsequent reports were more specific, talking about half the electrodes being exposed.

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11031228-e.html

I doubt if temperatures got anywhere near as high as 5000 degrees C at any stage. Remember that the Control Rods were fully inserted. I suspect that the outer zircaloy cases cracked under the pressure of boiling iodine and other volatiles.

By the way, one of the factors that increased the intensity of the fire at Chernobyl was the fact that the control rods were made of graphite. These burned furiously in the mangled wreck of the reactor core, resulting in the release of enormous clouds of exhaust gases carrying radiation across a large part of Northern Europe. In the case of Fukushima they use boron carbide (B4C) rods, which is an extremely hard refractory substance that doesn't burn.

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Foolosophy

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Re: Fukushima - Consequences?
Reply #209 - Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 8:12am

muso wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 7:44am:

Foolosophy wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 7:06am:

For example, an analysis by a French energy company revealed far more about the condition of the plant’s reactors than the Japanese have ever described: water levels at the reactor cores dropping by as much as three-quarters, and temperatures in those cores soaring to nearly 5,000 degrees Fahrenheit, hot enough to burn and melt the zirconium casings that protect the fuel rods.

Scientists in Europe and America also know from observing the explosions of hydrogen gas at the plant that the nuclear fuel rods had heated to very dangerous levels, and from radioactive plumes how far the rods had disintegrated. [/i][/b]

Let's give Tepco its due.

.

Yes lets do that - but with their CEO's in Jail. Remember this criminal corporation falsified safety records to the IAEA only a few years ago which resulted in 17 of their nuclear plants being dhut down.

In fact applying a ciminality label to corporations is a futile excercise. They have one responsibility and that's to maximising profit. Its actually illegal for them to do otherwise.

Everything else becomes an expense, consumable or a liability to that end - including workers. Except for the CEO's who oervsee this psychopathic and sociopathic behaviour. They are rewarded with bonuses and obscene renumeration and redundancy packages.

I am not personally against nuclear energy - just the nuclear fusion path. If nuclear fission develops into a viable option then we should look at generating power via this route (in s safe manner if possible)

Nuclear fusion is a stupid way to boil water (Didnt Einstein say that?)

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