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Racism vs Free Speech (Read 67620 times)
Coral Sea
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Re: Racism vs Free Speech
Reply #240 - Mar 4th, 2011 at 12:56am
 
Axle wrote on Mar 3rd, 2011 at 4:45pm:
Now, Coral, is hiding a lot within jargon and euphemism. He's trying to sound as if he has the "real truth" but it's suppressed. This is the stuff of conspiracy theorists. I very much doubt that you have the real truth.

The real truth is in fact routinely reported in peer-reviewed scientific journals.  The mainstream view in psychometrics, for instance, is that intelligence is largely hereditary.  Scientific journals, especially those dealing with population genetics and those dealing with medicine, also routinely report facts about race.  Often (but not always) euphemisms like "geographic ancestries", "population clusters", and "human populations" are used to avoid political attacks.

With some exceptions (e.g. osteoporosis being more common in europids and mongoloids than in negroids), these findings are largely ignored by the mainstream media, social sciences, and politicians.

There is no conspiracy at all.  Social taboos and status seeking perform all the work.  "Racism" is a social taboo and associated with low social status.  It is also increasingly criminalized in Western countries.

Axle wrote on Mar 3rd, 2011 at 4:45pm:
In as far as we're rolling off lines, I'd say that the evidence, so far, weighs predominantly in favour of human beings being mostly the same and the variation is minor and not anywhere near enough separate people into clear and distinct "types".

No, more or less all the evidence corroborates a polytypic view.  A person's race can be identified by craniofacial morphology, hair texture, bone density, musculature, and of course by genetics.  The idea that race does not exist is based on the discredited Lewontin fallacy, along with some politically motivated hatchet jobs by self-proclaimed "dialectical biologists" like Stephen Jay Gould.

Why do you suppose police departments employ forensic anthropologists?  Even a single hair from a crime scene can be used to determine the race of the perpetrator, allowing police more effectively to search for criminals.

Types are in fact clear and distinct.  Anyone can tell a white man from a negro, even if they have the same skin color.  Everyone knows they behave different, both between societies and within societies.  A century of research from the social sciences corroborates this.

Trust your lying eyes.

Anyone who thinks stereotyping is invalid would do well to read John Derbyshire's article on the subject: http://old.nationalreview.com/derbyshire/derbyshire020101.shtml

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"All Germans are efficient". "All English people have bad teeth." In fact, these researchers were not able to locate anybody who believes that a stereotype is true of all members of the stereotyped group. Stereotypes are probabilistic tools, and even the most dull-witted human beings seem to know this. People who believe that Mexicans are lazy or that the French don't wash, understand perfectly well that there are losts of industrious Mexicans and fragrant Frenchmen.
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"General, these are American regulars. In a hundred and fifty years they have never been beaten. They will hold."&&-- Col. Preston Brown, C/S, 2nd Division, the Marne, June 1, 1918
 
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Lisa Jones
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Re: Racism vs Free Speech
Reply #241 - Mar 4th, 2011 at 9:30am
 
Equitist wrote on Mar 3rd, 2011 at 5:32pm:
I challenge anyone to try to prove that there hasn't been an exponential increase in the amount of divisive anti-Muslim rhetoric emanating from Western pollies and media outlets over the past decade...

The anti-Muslim propaganda was both a convenient way of justifying warmongering in the ME - and of scoring cheap political points on the part of right whinger pollies...

That approach works to quell discontent at home when the vilified 'enemy' is abroad - but the West's rabid push for 'globalisation' has changed all of that...

Nothing good could ever have come from taking such a divisive approach - and we have inevitably reached the point where we have a chicken-egg problem...

To undo the damage, there needs to be unequivocal top-down messages which promote mutual tolerance,empathy, trust and respect - and broad social cohesiveness and harmony...

These messages must come from political, business and community leaders - as well as parents!

For what should be obvious reasons, this will take a long time...



Islam = a religion NOT a race.

I appreciate what you're saying though.
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Lisa Jones
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Re: Racism vs Free Speech
Reply #242 - Mar 4th, 2011 at 9:32am
 
Axle wrote on Mar 3rd, 2011 at 7:22pm:
Yes, people can stereotype on lots of grounds but that does not mean that some have to be used or are helpful. Some are just plain wrong and cause more problems than they're worth. I don't need to be thinking of a person's "race" to judge whether they're hostile and mean me harm. I can quickly determine that from the body language, what they say, how they say it, when they say it and the nature of the situation.




Agreed! Well said!
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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

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Soren
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Re: Racism vs Free Speech
Reply #243 - Mar 4th, 2011 at 9:37am
 

Equitist wrote on Mar 3rd, 2011 at 5:32pm:
divisive anti-Muslim rhetoric emanating from Western pollies and media outlets over the past decade...





Equitist wrote on Mar 3rd, 2011 at 10:47pm:
Over the past few weeks, in particular...



Fastest climb-down: from a decade to a coupla weeks. Illustration of the attention span you'd like to have versus the one you actually possess (on a good day).

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Equitist
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Re: Racism vs Free Speech
Reply #244 - Mar 4th, 2011 at 9:57am
 


Lisa Jones wrote on Mar 4th, 2011 at 9:30am:
Equitist wrote on Mar 3rd, 2011 at 5:32pm:
I challenge anyone to try to prove that there hasn't been an exponential increase in the amount of divisive anti-Muslim rhetoric emanating from Western pollies and media outlets over the past decade...

The anti-Muslim propaganda was both a convenient way of justifying warmongering in the ME - and of scoring cheap political points on the part of right whinger pollies...

That approach works to quell discontent at home when the vilified 'enemy' is abroad - but the West's rabid push for 'globalisation' has changed all of that...

Nothing good could ever have come from taking such a divisive approach - and we have inevitably reached the point where we have a chicken-egg problem...

To undo the damage, there needs to be unequivocal top-down messages which promote mutual tolerance,empathy, trust and respect - and broad social cohesiveness and harmony...

These messages must come from political, business and community leaders - as well as parents!

For what should be obvious reasons, this will take a long time...



Islam = a religion NOT a race.

I appreciate what you're saying though.




LOL...true, strictly speaking Muslims are not a race but racism seems to have a broader meaning in common usage these days...

I also get the the strong feeling that there is a great deal of ignorance about what a Muslim boogeyman is - which is a probably a symptom of the insidious anti-Muslim propaganda I've been referring to...

Moreover, the connotations associated with bigotry seem to arouse even more negative responses...

Oh, and people often mean to describe a bigoted person when they use the word racist (I also suspect that the word bigot and its derivatives are missing from the vocabularies of latter group)...

As you pointed out, I have been guilty of using the terms inter-changeably - especially when it relates to the attitudes of others in relation to Muslims...

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Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!
 
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Re: Racism vs Free Speech
Reply #245 - Mar 4th, 2011 at 10:01am
 


Soren wrote on Mar 4th, 2011 at 9:37am:
Equitist wrote on Mar 3rd, 2011 at 5:32pm:
divisive anti-Muslim rhetoric emanating from Western pollies and media outlets over the past decade...





Equitist wrote on Mar 3rd, 2011 at 10:47pm:
Over the past few weeks, in particular...



Fastest climb-down: from a decade to a coupla weeks. Illustration of the attention span you'd like to have versus the one you actually possess (on a good day).




LOL...you know full well that I've gone into detail about the timeframes I mention...

I doubt that you fail to make the long-term connection between the blatant propaganda in relation to the oxymoronic 'War on Terror' and the more recent flagrant 'boat people' rhetoric - so kindly stop being so freaking obtuse...

Roll Eyes



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Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!
 
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Re: Racism vs Free Speech
Reply #246 - Mar 4th, 2011 at 10:49am
 
yeah, I'll agree that anti-muslim rhetoric has been on the increase for the last decade, but it's a tad short sighted to blame the libs for this, or indeed any political party.

This is a worldwide phenomenon, driven by the media, not political parties.

Is it just a coincidence that those who 'control' the worlds media, are of the same culture'race as the sworn enemy of middle eastern muslims?
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In the fullness of time...
 
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Soren
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Re: Racism vs Free Speech
Reply #247 - Mar 4th, 2011 at 12:12pm
 
... wrote on Mar 4th, 2011 at 10:49am:
yeah, I'll agree that anti-muslim rhetoric has been on the increase for the last decade, but it's a tad short sighted to blame the libs for this, or indeed any political party.

This is a worldwide phenomenon, driven by the media, not political parties.

Is it just a coincidence that those who 'control' the worlds media, are of the same culture'race as the sworn enemy of middle eastern muslims?



Have a look at the list of terrorist attacks over the last decade:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents

WHat do you notice?


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Re: Racism vs Free Speech
Reply #248 - Mar 4th, 2011 at 12:19pm
 
Soren wrote on Mar 4th, 2011 at 12:12pm:
... wrote on Mar 4th, 2011 at 10:49am:
yeah, I'll agree that anti-muslim rhetoric has been on the increase for the last decade, but it's a tad short sighted to blame the libs for this, or indeed any political party.

This is a worldwide phenomenon, driven by the media, not political parties.

Is it just a coincidence that those who 'control' the worlds media, are of the same culture'race as the sworn enemy of middle eastern muslims?



Have a look at the list of terrorist attacks over the last decade:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents

WHat do you notice?





That Israeli terror doesn't rate a mention?

All depends how you differentiate 'terror' attacks from other attacks doesn't it?
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In the fullness of time...
 
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Racism vs Free Speech
Reply #249 - Mar 4th, 2011 at 1:53pm
 
... wrote on Mar 4th, 2011 at 12:19pm:
Soren wrote on Mar 4th, 2011 at 12:12pm:
... wrote on Mar 4th, 2011 at 10:49am:
yeah, I'll agree that anti-muslim rhetoric has been on the increase for the last decade, but it's a tad short sighted to blame the libs for this, or indeed any political party.

This is a worldwide phenomenon, driven by the media, not political parties.

Is it just a coincidence that those who 'control' the worlds media, are of the same culture'race as the sworn enemy of middle eastern muslims?



Have a look at the list of terrorist attacks over the last decade:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents

WHat do you notice?





That Israeli terror doesn't rate a mention?

All depends how you differentiate 'terror' attacks from other attacks doesn't it?


That might be because of the definition of 'terrorism'????

It needs to be NOT state sponsored, in other words, not ordered by a legitimate Government of a country.....Since Israel IS a country,with a government, then Israel's action can't be 'terrorism'....
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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Re: Racism vs Free Speech
Reply #250 - Mar 4th, 2011 at 2:02pm
 
gizmo_2655 wrote on Mar 4th, 2011 at 1:53pm:
... wrote on Mar 4th, 2011 at 12:19pm:
Soren wrote on Mar 4th, 2011 at 12:12pm:
... wrote on Mar 4th, 2011 at 10:49am:
yeah, I'll agree that anti-muslim rhetoric has been on the increase for the last decade, but it's a tad short sighted to blame the libs for this, or indeed any political party.

This is a worldwide phenomenon, driven by the media, not political parties.

Is it just a coincidence that those who 'control' the worlds media, are of the same culture'race as the sworn enemy of middle eastern muslims?



Have a look at the list of terrorist attacks over the last decade:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents

WHat do you notice?





That Israeli terror doesn't rate a mention?

All depends how you differentiate 'terror' attacks from other attacks doesn't it?


That might be because of the definition of 'terrorism'????

It needs to be NOT state sponsored, in other words, not ordered by a legitimate Government of a country.....Since Israel IS a country,with a government, then Israel's action can't be 'terrorism'....



So how can the lockerbie bombing be called terrorism, given that it was ordered and sponsored by Gaddafi?
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In the fullness of time...
 
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muso
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Re: Racism vs Free Speech
Reply #251 - Mar 4th, 2011 at 8:41pm
 
... wrote on Mar 4th, 2011 at 2:02pm:
gizmo_2655 wrote on Mar 4th, 2011 at 1:53pm:
It needs to be NOT state sponsored, in other words, not ordered by a legitimate Government of a country[/highlight].....Since Israel IS a country,with a government, then Israel's action can't be 'terrorism'....



So how can the lockerbie bombing be called terrorism, given that it was ordered and sponsored by Gaddafi?


His government was never legitimate.
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...
1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not 
 
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Re: Racism vs Free Speech
Reply #252 - Mar 4th, 2011 at 9:39pm
 
... wrote on Mar 4th, 2011 at 2:02pm:
So how can the lockerbie bombing be called terrorism, given that it was ordered and sponsored by Gaddafi?


Decades of 'everybody's the same' and 'mustn't notice the difference between people' has led to grown men struggling with calling the bombing of a passenger plane terrorism. They are struggling with telling the difference between government by military putch and government by constitution and free elections. Grown men will feign not know the difference between a military dictator and Kevin Rudd.

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Re: Racism vs Free Speech
Reply #253 - Mar 5th, 2011 at 12:43am
 
Quote:
The real truth is in fact routinely reported in peer-reviewed scientific journals.  The mainstream view in psychometrics, for instance, is that intelligence is largely hereditary.  Scientific journals, especially those dealing with population genetics and those dealing with medicine, also routinely report facts about race.  Often (but not always) euphemisms like "geographic ancestries", "population clusters", and "human populations" are used to avoid political attacks.


I'm sorry, you can peddle that somewhere else.

"The claim that a significant portion of the racial IQ gap has an ultimately genetic origin have been advanced by psychologists, including Arthur Jensen, J. Philippe Rushton, Richard Lynn, and Linda Gottfredson, while others such as Richard Nisbett, James R. Flynn, Robert Sternberg and Jefferson Fish have argued in favor of wholly or mostly environmental causes. The American Psychological Association in a 1996 report stated that the US racial IQ gap was not the result of bias in the content or administration of tests, nor simply reflect differences in socio-economic status. They go on to state that cultural factors may be appropriate but have little direct empirical support, nor is there such support for a genetic interpretation, and that presently no one knows the cause of the differential.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

It's not as you present. And we do know that persons such as Rushton, Burt and Lynn have abused statistics, have used shoddy sampling, and have told outright lies. They have even misused the very notion of 'heretability' up which they have "mistakenly" used to state that intelligence is largely inherited

We also know that heritability which is based on twin studies has been found are highly flawed and have been attacked by academics and has had them scratching their heads as to why it's rolled out as fact.

"The derivation of heritability from human twin studies involves serious methodological flaws. Heritability is consistently overestimated because of biological confounds of twinning, consistent and often gross underestimation of the environmental variance, and nonadditive genetic influences that can hugely exaggerate heritability values. Despite this bad research design, behaviour geneticists continue to publish results implying that their heritability results are valid.

http://philpapers.org/rec/SEGWTS

Population genetics isn't a euphemism for race. That kind of talk comes from racists not population genetics.

Population genetics is also the most widely misused area of human genetics, sometimes bordering on "vigilante genetics," a term coined by Newton Morton. Persons have mistakenly applied population genetics to "prove" race superiority for intelligence and aptitudes, and have misused it in eugenics. As an educated and, I hope, a respected member of your community you must be alert to "vigilante genetics."

Population genetics is concerned with gene and genotype frequencies, the factors that tend to keep them constant, and the factors that tend to change them in populations. It is largely concerned with the study of polymorphisms. It directly impacts counseling, forensic medicine, and genetic screening.

http://www.uic.edu/classes/bms/bms655/lesson13.html


Quote:
With some exceptions (e.g. osteoporosis being more common in europids and mongoloids than in negroids), these findings are largely ignored by the mainstream media, social sciences, and politicians.


You are using the antiquated and disused terminology- a nasty habit of racists.

Quote:
There is no conspiracy at all.


I was referring to racists thinking who think that genetic research is using code for folkloric ideas on race. That's conspiracy thinking- it's false.

Quote:
No, more or less all the evidence corroborates a polytypic view.  A person's race can be identified by craniofacial morphology, hair texture, bone density, musculature, and of course by genetics.  The idea that race does not exist is based on the discredited Lewontin fallacy, along with some politically motivated hatchet jobs by self-proclaimed "dialectical biologists" like Stephen Jay Gould.

Why do you suppose police departments employ forensic anthropologists?  Even a single hair from a crime scene can be used to determine the race of the perpetrator, allowing police more effectively to search for criminals.


They've associated few recognised characteristics with social concepts of race.  So what? That some variation is picked up on doesn't tell us that the variation is something that justifies a categorisations on "race".


Quote:
Types are in fact clear and distinct.  Anyone can tell a white man from a negro, even if they have the same skin color.  Everyone knows they behave different, both between societies and within societies.  A century of research from the social sciences corroborates this.


Again that there is some variation that allows you to roughly say where a person is from doesn't warrant the crude historical, and dropped, categories of race. All those characeristics you've cited are superficial characteristics. The fact remains that human beings share in common 99.99% of their DNA. A variation in some superficial characteristics does not imply biologically distinct races in the sense of subspecies.
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« Last Edit: Mar 5th, 2011 at 1:43am by Axle »  
 
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Axle
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Re: Racism vs Free Speech
Reply #254 - Mar 5th, 2011 at 12:56am
 
Quote:
Types are in fact clear and distinct.  Anyone can tell a white man from a negro, even if they have the same skin color.  Everyone knows they behave different, both between societies and within societies.  A century of research from the social sciences corroborates this.
T

There's nothing reasonable here. Just a rant of a racist who sounds like he thinks in caricatures There is a huge distribution of bodily characteristics in Africa. And as far as the genetics goes, those who you refer to monolithically as "negro"( a pejorative term, not used in science today and hardly anyone else but racists) represent over 99% of the genetic diversity on this planet.


Quote:
Trust your lying eyes.

Anyone who thinks stereotyping is invalid would do well to read John Derbyshire's article on the subject: http://old.nationalreview.com/derbyshire/derbyshire020101.shtml


John Derbyshire is an American conservative writer. As if he has any authority outside conservatives that lap up his work let alone science. However, it does tell us what you like to read.

"Needless to say, Derbyshire is full of it, and he has a poor grasp of what recent genetics has actually demonstrated regarding nature, nurture, and race.

What Derbyshire misses is that those genetic differences generally do not fall along racial or population lines. There is no current evidence to support the notion that genetic differences responsible for variation in complex traits like personality or intelligence are linked to race.

This deserves more discussion, but here is what the American Society of Human Genetics said about James Watson's comments on race and intelligence:


On October 14, 2007, The Sunday Times (London) quoted speculation by geneticist James Watson regarding alleged intellectual inferiority among Africans. ASHG find the comments to be tragically misguided and without scientific foundation. Watson later apologized "unreservedly" for his comments, stating that there is no scientific basis for such beliefs."

http://www.science20.com/adaptive_complexity/blog/john_derbyshire_misunderstands_race_and_genetics

Sorry, Coral( perhaps, Imperium- quacks and waddles about in much the same manner), I don't buy your dressed up racist assertions.
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« Last Edit: Mar 5th, 2011 at 1:46am by Axle »  
 
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