Australian Politics Forum - Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain

Foolosophy Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1171 Australia Gender:	Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain Reply #210 - Apr 7^th, 2011 at 6:08pm ...what is that putrid foul stench that has wafted in here Luckily for Humanity that the AGW DENIALIST crack pot religion isnt even in the political picture anymore. They have been shut out like the flat earth society _ LOL
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muso

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #211 - Apr 8^th, 2011 at 8:11am

I think this has gone beyond kindergarten sketches and Monty Pythonesque insults.

There is a genuine confusion in the population, and at the heart of it is the perception that scientists can not be trusted.

In my opinion, the only way we can correct this is to try to explain the science one mouthful at a time. OK, you may say that it's all High School Science, and fine, it's possible to teach it in a non rigorous manner, but with all the deliberate disonformation flying around, it's very difficult to convince some people.

I don't think that's because they are any thicker than the next person either.

I was chatting to a graduate meteorologist on another forum, and he was (unusually) a climate change denier. He'd been working outside his field for something like 30 years, and he hadn't kept up with things.

After a heated debate lasting several months, he went silent for a while and then PM'd me. He'd been doing a bit of digging through papers and what he saw unsettled him. I agreed to lay off the rhetoric and let him explain for himself on the board. It's not exactly what I'd term a win. When you realise the enormity of what has to be done, nobody is a winner.

The science is quite subtle in some areas, and for a while we were using exactly the same arguments to support both our cases. I was starting to get extremely frustrated, but then it just clicked for him.

The crux of the matter is that we need to start replacing oil and coal with renewable alternatives. It really doesn't matter whether you believe the atmospheric physics, because there are plenty of other good reasons to go with renewables - the main one being that oil and gas are finite resources.

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muso

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #212 - Apr 8^th, 2011 at 8:28am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Mar 4^th, 2011 at 1:40pm:

Well if we use a climate sensitivity of 3 degrees for a doubling of CO2, that infers that about 67% of the effect is due to water.

You understand that for a doubling of CO2, there is a much greater effect caused by the extra water vapour that is released because of the initial warming effect.

Yes, and so does ever person who has gone past Climatology 101. Increase the CO2, and there is an amplification of that effect due to the extra water vapour released.

Quote:

And of course I'm 'hung up' on cause and effect........it's the central issue...

If Co2 is the CAUSE of the warming....then Co2 reduction would help slow the warming..

But if Co2 is an EFFECT of the warming...then Co2 reduction will do absolutely nothing to slow the warming..

You see???

It's not quite that simplistic. It's a totally different matter adding significant masses of CO2 to the atmosphere from fossil fuels to observing CO2 increases that have occurred in the past due to changes in solar irradiance (mostly orbital effects)

In the rest of your post, I'm a bit confused as to what are my points and what are yours. Maybe if you use the quote box.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #213 - Apr 8^th, 2011 at 9:42am

muso wrote on Apr 8^th, 2011 at 8:28am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Mar 4^th, 2011 at 1:40pm:

Well if we use a climate sensitivity of 3 degrees for a doubling of CO2, that infers that about 67% of the effect is due to water.

You understand that for a doubling of CO2, there is a much greater effect caused by the extra water vapour that is released because of the initial warming effect.

Yes, and so does ever person who has gone past Climatology 101. Increase the CO2, and there is an amplification of that effect due to the extra water vapour released.

Quote:

And of course I'm 'hung up' on cause and effect........it's the central issue...

If Co2 is the CAUSE of the warming....then Co2 reduction would help slow the warming..

But if Co2 is an EFFECT of the warming...then Co2 reduction will do absolutely nothing to slow the warming..

You see???

It's not quite that simplistic. It's a totally different matter adding significant masses of CO2 to the atmosphere from fossil fuels to observing CO2 increases that have occurred in the past due to changes in solar irradiance (mostly orbital effects)

In the rest of your post, I'm a bit confused as to what are my points and what are yours. Maybe if you use the quote box.

Actually I think that was you...remember you sent me a PM titled 'Eek'??...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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perceptions_now

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #214 - Apr 8^th, 2011 at 12:43pm

Barnett's water pipeline theory mocked

The West Australian opposition has ridiculed Premier Colin Barnett's theory that water would flow from the north of state to Perth across flat land by the force of gravity.

Mr Barnett has revived a widely rubbished plan to funnel water from the Kimberley to Perth via a canal or pipeline, saying it could be a viable option in the future.

Opposition water spokesman Fran Logan mocked the idea and said the cost would be "astronomical", pushing household water bills from $500 a year to $2000.

Water Minister Bill Marmion told parliament a 1996 study on building a pipeline found the transported water would cost $6.50 a kilolitre in today's figures.

By comparison, sourcing water from a desalination plant cost about $2.40 a kilolitre, and water from dams approximately $1.20.

"As we move on, economic conditions may change so it may be a medium-to-longer-term solution ... and in the future the economics of a pipeline may become more viable," Mr Marmion said on Thursday.

Mr Logan said according to a 2006 report a canal would cost more than $14 billion, with 70 per cent of the water being lost through evaporation, while a pipeline would cost in excess of $12 billion.

Link -
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/barnetts-water-pipeline-theory-moc...
================
A few observations -
1) How much would it have cost, if a water pipelines had been built in conjunction with the developments in the North West of WA, during the 1970's & 1980's?
2) What may be the future costs, as Perth Dam levels fall below the current 24% of capacity, as climate change continues to drive rainfall levels lower & heat higher?
3) What may be the future costs, of desalination plants, as future Fossil Fuel prices continue to escalate to 100%, 200%, 300%, 400%, 500% etc of current prices?

Btw, I think it was a Labor minister who first Publicly mooted the idea of this Kimberley-Perth water pipeline.
It is interesting how either being in power or in opposition changes the perspective of many Politicians!

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Soren

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #215 - Apr 9^th, 2011 at 6:20pm

muso wrote on Apr 8^th, 2011 at 8:11am:

I think this has gone beyond kindergarten sketches and Monty Pythonesque insults.

There is a genuine confusion in the population, and at the heart of it is the perception that scientists can not be trusted.

In my opinion, the only way we can correct this is to try to explain the science one mouthful at a time. OK, you may say that it's all High School Science, and fine, it's possible to teach it in a non rigorous manner, but with all the deliberate disonformation flying around, it's very difficult to convince some people.

I don't think that's because they are any thicker than the next person either.

I was chatting to a graduate meteorologist on another forum, and he was (unusually) a climate change denier. He'd been working outside his field for something like 30 years, and he hadn't kept up with things.

After a heated debate lasting several months, he went silent for a while and then PM'd me. He'd been doing a bit of digging through papers and what he saw unsettled him. I agreed to lay off the rhetoric and let him explain for himself on the board. It's not exactly what I'd term a win. When you realise the enormity of what has to be done, nobody is a winner.

The science is quite subtle in some areas, and for a while we were using exactly the same arguments to support both our cases. I was starting to get extremely frustrated, but then it just clicked for him.

The crux of the matter is that we need to start replacing oil and coal with renewable alternatives. It really doesn't matter whether you believe the atmospheric physics, because there are plenty of other good reasons to go with renewables - the main one being that oil and gas are finite resources.

This is sober and sensible stuff. The causes of sober and sensible people are often ruined by fellow-travellers who latch onto ideas and appropriate them to their wholly different ends.

The Greens are a good example of this. Howevr, governments generally are also tempted to expand their oversight (and tax take) under any excuse, even if their social control agendas are not so plain and simple as that of the Greens.

The shrill idiocy of the AGW catastrophy peddlers ruins the chances of the sensible and plain idea of renewable clean energy becasue they insist on bringing into the mix of ideas their demand for the equal rights for arsophilia, to kill the unborn and the feeble, and most importantly, their complete hostility to ordinary people.

The single Green MP in the House of Reps spoke on his night of victory about gay marriage as his most important issue. Who the hell wants to buy a climate policy from such a Green? His interest is in social engineering, not limat engineering.

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Foolosophy

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #216 - Apr 9^th, 2011 at 6:30pm

AGW is a validated scientific fact - has been for at least 35 years.

There isn't a single international or national scientific body that disputes the simple science that underpinns AGW

There isn't a single government that disputes the serious ramifications of AGW

There isn't a single major corporation (and I am icluding the fossil fuel giants here) that reject the truth of AGW.

So I ask who are we left with?

LOL

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Soren

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #217 - Apr 9^th, 2011 at 10:23pm

Foolosophy wrote on Apr 9^th, 2011 at 6:30pm:

AGW is a validated scientific fact - has been for at least 35 years.

There isn't a single international or national scientific body that disputes the simple science that underpinns AGW

There isn't a single government that disputes the serious ramifications of AGW

There isn't a single major corporation (and I am icluding the fossil fuel giants here) that reject the truth of AGW.

So I ask who are we left with?

LOL

None of which means that an Australian carbon tax is the answer.

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Foolosophy

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #218 - Apr 9^th, 2011 at 10:38pm

Soren wrote on Apr 9^th, 2011 at 10:23pm:

Foolosophy wrote on Apr 9^th, 2011 at 6:30pm:

AGW is a validated scientific fact - has been for at least 35 years.

There isn't a single international or national scientific body that disputes the simple science that underpinns AGW

There isn't a single government that disputes the serious ramifications of AGW

There isn't a single major corporation (and I am icluding the fossil fuel giants here) that reject the truth of AGW.

So I ask who are we left with?

LOL

None of which means that an Australian carbon tax is the answer.

I didn't say that a carbon tax is the answer. If you make the carbon price $7 per tonne of carbon then you may as well not do it.

A carbon price needs to be modest initially and then ramped up until the fossil fuel cirminal corporations are put out of business and their CEO's jailed for crimes against humanity

An effective approach would be to ramp up an initial $25 per tonne of carbon price to $323 per tonne of carbon over a decade

I would like to do them in slowly before they are thrown in jail.

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Soren

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #219 - Apr 9^th, 2011 at 11:32pm

Candles emit far more CO2 than coal fired powerstation, you big, thick drongo.
How much unemployment would come with electricty costing 3 times what it costs now? Taxing petrol heavily han't led to a reduction in consumption. Semi-literate, manic hotheads like you have kidnapped the Greens, and Labor and have made intelligence a dirty word among them.

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Enquiring mind Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 104447	Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain Reply #220 - Apr 9^th, 2011 at 11:40pm Now now, there's no need to use filthy words like that. Let's try to keep it clean here, thanks, gents. Ladies sometimes read these forums.
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Foolosophy

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #221 - Apr 9^th, 2011 at 11:51pm

Soren wrote on Apr 9^th, 2011 at 11:32pm:

Candles emit far more CO2 than coal fired powerstation, you big, thick drongo.
How much unemployment would come with electricty costing 3 times what it costs now? Taxing petrol heavily han't led to a reduction in consumption. Semi-literate, manic hotheads like you have kidnapped the Greens, and Labor and have made intelligence a dirty word among them.

I estimate that a sustainable and renewable energy option would produce and essentially FREE power grid.

Great hey Soren - by 2030 your power bill will be reduced to about $50 per year ( admin charges - you understand the paper work still has to be done)

Its imperative that the Carbon Price is ramped up towards the $323 per tonne of carbon int he first decade - then it should be increased to $900 per tonne of carbon the very next year

how much unemployment will result when then planet's oceans boil?

You defend the criminal tyrannical UN-democratic CORPORATE slave system with your last dying breath.

This is understandable you are a statist stalinist after all - its your duty to bend over every day for your corporate de-rimming

I would have thought that you would welcome an efficient FREE power GRID ebergised by the Sun and other options.

Soren, I believ you may be coming around - you have seen the light and the errors of yoru past!

Look no hands

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Soren

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #222 - Apr 9^th, 2011 at 11:51pm

Enquiring mind wrote on Apr 9^th, 2011 at 11:40pm:

Now now, there's no need to use filthy words like that. Let's try to keep it clean here, thanks, gents. Ladies sometimes read these forums.

He IS a smacking 'laydee', isn't he?
Look at his avatar with the little pink venus symbol. He's a pathtic, mysoginistic drongo. And that's when he is approaching coherence.

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Foolosophy

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #223 - Apr 9^th, 2011 at 11:56pm

Soren wrote on Apr 9^th, 2011 at 11:51pm:

Enquiring mind wrote on Apr 9^th, 2011 at 11:40pm:

Now now, there's no need to use filthy words like that. Let's try to keep it clean here, thanks, gents. Ladies sometimes read these forums.

He IS a smacking 'laydee', isn't he?
Look at his avatar with the little pink venus symbol. He's a pathtic, mysoginistic drongo. And that's when he is approaching coherence.

I appreciate that compliment Soren

comming from you actually validates my life's work.

It's a bit like receiving an F in an examination set by Satan

TOP OF THE CLASS

isnt it beautiful Soren?

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Foolosophy Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1171 Australia Gender:	Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain Reply #224 - Apr 9^th, 2011 at 11:59pm Soren - LOOK 3 people having fun operating a base load solar thermal power plant - isnt it beautiful? They are havign a cold beer walking around
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