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Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain (Read 36629 times)
perceptions_now
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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #180 - Feb 27th, 2011 at 6:44pm
 
gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 27th, 2011 at 6:29pm:
Actually it WAS what you said...


It seems you can't read!
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qikvtec
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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #181 - Feb 27th, 2011 at 7:03pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Feb 26th, 2011 at 10:11pm:
muso wrote on Feb 26th, 2011 at 9:07pm:
gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 26th, 2011 at 3:12pm:
Granted....Co2 has increased....However, there's still nothing in your posts to indicate that Co2 is responsible for any changes in global temperature...

THAT is the basic problem..

I'm sorry, but that is where I have a problem, I still haven't seen ANYTHING that indicates that Co2 is behind AGW.....


Ignoring the irrational bit at the end - you accept that the CO2 has risen by 30% since industrialisation and you accept that the evidence shows that the carbon dioxide produced from fuel burning is pretty well consistent with the growth in atmospheric and ocean CO2 over that period.

Now you are questioning the very mechanism of CO2 as a greenhouse gas, even though you've said that without that CO2, the Earth would be around -18 degrees C on average.

If I've got that right, the only thing I need to do to convince you is to demonstrate that CO2 and other Greenhouse gases cause warming, and to show how we can demonstrate that.

I guess there is the question of the magnitude too.  

I'm not interested in what you say about the IPCC or Chicken Little or whatever. Let's stick to science here.

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 26th, 2011 at 4:24pm:
Because that 'evil' industry will make it so.....Just like evil cars, electricity and all technology will....we should ALL be living in communes, growing dope and making our own clothes....


I hope you're not implying that that's my position. I have always made it clear that the way ahead is through sustainable growth. I approve of capitalism, and I like the idea of being rich.



It is possible, we may differ here, Muso?

I know that I will differ with gizmo, qikvtec and some others, but you get that!

The phrase "sustainable growth", aside from various implications regarding the word sustainable, still has growth as the underlying theme!

I would suggest that at this point in the history of the human species, continued Economic growth is not only not likely, but it is likely to quickly become counter-productive, in terms of the quality of life, for most of the human species.

The last 100 years or so, of this edition of Capitalism, Economic Growth has become a absolute requirement, along with an ever increasing Debt based monetary system.

We, as a species, have now reached the zenith of that Economic Growth system, as we edge over the 7 Billion Population and perhaps head for 8 Billion?

However, I have serious doubts that we will make it to 8 Billion, due to -
1) The declining Global fertility rate.
2) The death of some 2 Billion Baby Boomers over the next 20-30 years or so.
3) The imminent decline of the Global Energy system, primarily that of Fossil Fuels & primarily Crude Oil, which enables Transport, Agriculture, a great deal of the Medical areas & many, many other areas.    

They are 2 of the three primary Economic Drivers & Enablers of the last 150-200 years and together with the added Economic restrictions of Climate Change, I believe there is very little chance of Economic Growth over the next 30-40 years, "sustainable or not"!

As I have previously said, Technology/Innovation may again ride to our rescue, but given the forces arrayed against us and our tendency not to believe that which is right in front of us, I have serious doubts.

I also believe that Capitalism is a better option than the alternatives, such as Communism & Facism, to name but a few.

However, Capitalism Mark1 has now outlived its time and the future must see a more directed Capitalism, as the old days are coming to an end, as an unrestricted Demand, meets a Supply full of limitations!


We do agree on some things.  The world would be a very boring place if we agreed on everything.
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Politicians and Nappies need to be changed often and for the same reason.

One trouble with political jokes is that they often get elected.

Alan Joyce for PM
 
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perceptions_now
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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #182 - Feb 27th, 2011 at 8:03pm
 
qikvtec wrote on Feb 27th, 2011 at 7:03pm:
perceptions_now wrote on Feb 26th, 2011 at 10:11pm:
muso wrote on Feb 26th, 2011 at 9:07pm:
gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 26th, 2011 at 3:12pm:
Granted....Co2 has increased....However, there's still nothing in your posts to indicate that Co2 is responsible for any changes in global temperature...

THAT is the basic problem..

I'm sorry, but that is where I have a problem, I still haven't seen ANYTHING that indicates that Co2 is behind AGW.....


Ignoring the irrational bit at the end - you accept that the CO2 has risen by 30% since industrialisation and you accept that the evidence shows that the carbon dioxide produced from fuel burning is pretty well consistent with the growth in atmospheric and ocean CO2 over that period.

Now you are questioning the very mechanism of CO2 as a greenhouse gas, even though you've said that without that CO2, the Earth would be around -18 degrees C on average.

If I've got that right, the only thing I need to do to convince you is to demonstrate that CO2 and other Greenhouse gases cause warming, and to show how we can demonstrate that.

I guess there is the question of the magnitude too.  

I'm not interested in what you say about the IPCC or Chicken Little or whatever. Let's stick to science here.

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 26th, 2011 at 4:24pm:
Because that 'evil' industry will make it so.....Just like evil cars, electricity and all technology will....we should ALL be living in communes, growing dope and making our own clothes....


I hope you're not implying that that's my position. I have always made it clear that the way ahead is through sustainable growth. I approve of capitalism, and I like the idea of being rich.



It is possible, we may differ here, Muso?

I know that I will differ with gizmo, qikvtec and some others, but you get that!

The phrase "sustainable growth", aside from various implications regarding the word sustainable, still has growth as the underlying theme!

I would suggest that at this point in the history of the human species, continued Economic growth is not only not likely, but it is likely to quickly become counter-productive, in terms of the quality of life, for most of the human species.

The last 100 years or so, of this edition of Capitalism, Economic Growth has become a absolute requirement, along with an ever increasing Debt based monetary system.

We, as a species, have now reached the zenith of that Economic Growth system, as we edge over the 7 Billion Population and perhaps head for 8 Billion?

However, I have serious doubts that we will make it to 8 Billion, due to -
1) The declining Global fertility rate.
2) The death of some 2 Billion Baby Boomers over the next 20-30 years or so.
3) The imminent decline of the Global Energy system, primarily that of Fossil Fuels & primarily Crude Oil, which enables Transport, Agriculture, a great deal of the Medical areas & many, many other areas.    

They are 2 of the three primary Economic Drivers & Enablers of the last 150-200 years and together with the added Economic restrictions of Climate Change, I believe there is very little chance of Economic Growth over the next 30-40 years, "sustainable or not"!

As I have previously said, Technology/Innovation may again ride to our rescue, but given the forces arrayed against us and our tendency not to believe that which is right in front of us, I have serious doubts.

I also believe that Capitalism is a better option than the alternatives, such as Communism & Facism, to name but a few.

However, Capitalism Mark1 has now outlived its time and the future must see a more directed Capitalism, as the old days are coming to an end, as an unrestricted Demand, meets a Supply full of limitations!


We do agree on some things.  The world would be a very boring place if we agreed on everything.



Agreed!

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gizmo_2655
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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #183 - Feb 27th, 2011 at 9:12pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Feb 27th, 2011 at 6:44pm:
gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 27th, 2011 at 6:29pm:
Actually it WAS what you said...


It seems you can't read!



Yes, actually I can read...

But it's STILL the same idea...warmists automatically 'identify' sceptics as being in the pay of big oil, or similar groups...


LOOK at the responses to disagreements about 'Co2' warming....almost every response involves 'Big Oil' , or some other 'lobbying group'....
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat
 
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perceptions_now
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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #184 - Feb 27th, 2011 at 9:30pm
 
gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 27th, 2011 at 9:12pm:
perceptions_now wrote on Feb 27th, 2011 at 6:44pm:
gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 27th, 2011 at 6:29pm:
Actually it WAS what you said...


It seems you can't read!



Yes, actually I can read...

But it's STILL the same idea...warmists automatically 'identify' sceptics as being in the pay of big oil, or similar groups...


LOOK at the responses to disagreements about 'Co2' warming....almost every response involves 'Big Oil' , or some other 'lobbying group'....


It is quite likely that big oil (companies & countries) do back quite a few "projects", to improve their preceived better outcomes, as did the Tobacco industry, many other industries & also governments!  

But, we have been down the line before, haven't we!



Btw, I am not a "Warmist", I am a "Realist", who can see that we are nearing the top of another warming cycle, albeit perhaps a little quicker than it should be and perhaps the warming cycle may overshoot a little more than it would have, if we (humans) had not had our 2 cents worth of imput.

Once this warming cycle finishes, another Ice Age will begin and we will not be anywhere near ready for either event, which is THE bottom line!
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #185 - Feb 27th, 2011 at 9:33pm
 
LOL....

So what's your definition of a 'climate realist'???

a)someone who 'really' believes in Anthropogenic Climate Change
or
b)someone who's look at the science, and realised the Anthropogenic Climate Change is rubbish???
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« Last Edit: Feb 27th, 2011 at 9:45pm by gizmo_2655 »  

"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat
 
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perceptions_now
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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #186 - Feb 27th, 2011 at 10:14pm
 
gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 27th, 2011 at 9:33pm:
LOL....

So what's your definition of a 'climate realist'???

a)someone who 'really' believes in Anthropogenic Climate Change
or
b)someone who's look at the science, and realised the Anthropogenic Climate Change is rubbish???


None of the above!

I am simply a Realist, not a climate realist, just a realist.

Some one who looks at the best available information and then comes to their OWN conclusions!
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muso
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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #187 - Feb 28th, 2011 at 8:05am
 
gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 27th, 2011 at 1:16pm:
muso wrote on Feb 27th, 2011 at 10:11am:
HC wrote on Feb 27th, 2011 at 8:54am:


Instead of cutting and pasting from special interest lobbyists, why not try to follow the argument and refute anything that doesn't sound right? We are talking very basic science here.

Lavoisier Group

   * President: Peter Walsh, former Finance Minister
   * Vice President: Ian Webber, Director of WMC Resources
   * Secretary: Ray Evans, President of the HR Nicholls Society, ex-WMC [3]
   * Treasurer: Harold Clough AO, IPA board member and Director of Clough Group, a mining and resource service company.
   * Robert Foster
   * Bruce Kean, Chairman of Committee for Economic Development of Australia [4]
   * Peter Murray, coal industry consultant

Not a qualified scientist among them. Lavoisier would turn in his grave.



Seriously muso....that means what???...

The Board of Directors of most science companies/research groups don't include scientists either...
You know the old saying about scientific research...."It takes 10 people with their feet on the ground, to support 1 scientist with his head in the clouds"....


That wasn't in response to you Gizmo. There are a lot of vested interest groups, however how did you go with the post on CO2 ?

make sense to you? Because you are actually coming very close agreeing with just about everything I've written on the science so far. By the way, I don't think you have really considered the science carefully before now because of some of the remarks you made on  CO2 absorbing the incident rays of the sun as well.
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muso
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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #188 - Feb 28th, 2011 at 9:22am
 
gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 27th, 2011 at 9:33pm:
LOL....

So what's your definition of a 'climate realist'???

a)someone who 'really' believes in Anthropogenic Climate Change
or
b)someone who's look at the science, and realised the Anthropogenic Climate Change is rubbish???



(c) Someone who has looked into the science in great detail and realises that depressing as it sounds, it's quite valid.

No faith is involved. All you need to do is get your head around it.
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #189 - Feb 28th, 2011 at 11:47am
 
Quote:
That wasn't in response to you Gizmo. There are a lot of vested interest groups,


True......When you get right down to it...The IPCC is a 'vested interest group' too, after all.....
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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muso
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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #190 - Feb 28th, 2011 at 1:46pm
 
gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 28th, 2011 at 11:47am:
Quote:
That wasn't in response to you Gizmo. There are a lot of vested interest groups,


True......When you get right down to it...The IPCC is a 'vested interest group' too, after all.....


I'm talking about very basic science, not about the IPCC. Let's not divert from the science. I need to check if you agree with me up to now before I can move on.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1297970964/169

Post 169. Tell me if you disagree with any of it.
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #191 - Feb 28th, 2011 at 1:48pm
 
muso wrote on Feb 28th, 2011 at 1:46pm:
gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 28th, 2011 at 11:47am:
Quote:
That wasn't in response to you Gizmo. There are a lot of vested interest groups,


True......When you get right down to it...The IPCC is a 'vested interest group' too, after all.....


I'm talking about very basic science, not about the IPCC. Let's not divert from the science. I need to check if you agree with me up to now before I can move on.


I haven't quite finished it yet.....It's a little heavy ( I admit, I took Biology in High school, my knowledge of Physics is all post-school)....So bear with me...

Can you link the site that graph came from???...It might be easier to follow in context ( key maps and explanation etc)....
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat
 
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muso
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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #192 - Feb 28th, 2011 at 2:16pm
 
This might help you, but it also might confuse you totally. Good luck.

http://therealglobalwarmingstory.com/GW10.pdf
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #193 - Feb 28th, 2011 at 2:22pm
 
Thanks...

I'll read through it tonight, and give my response tomorrow...
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It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #194 - Feb 28th, 2011 at 2:30pm
 
chicken_lipsforme wrote on Feb 18th, 2011 at 7:18am:
____ wrote on Feb 18th, 2011 at 5:29am:
So the science mounts ... when will the hard right embrace science and back Greens policies like a 40% cut in CO2 pollution. If they don't it's enough evidence to call the Liberals and the National Party's financially reckless.


Sounds like crap to me green.
By the way, which tea leaves did they use, or did they just read sign in cats intestines this time the old fashioned way.
Or was it from icy poles pulled out from the north pole again?
These slapnuts obviously havent heard of El Nino & La Nina.



Or of Dorothea Mackellar"


Core of my heart, my country!
Her pitiless blue sky,
When sick at heart, around us,
We see the cattle die -
But then the grey clouds gather,
And we can bless again
The drumming of an army,
The steady, soaking rain.

Core of my heart, my country!
Land of the Rainbow Gold,
For flood and fire and famine,
She pays us back threefold -
Over the thirsty paddocks,
Watch, after many days,
The filmy veil of greenness
That thickens as we gaze.


Clive James has a good take in the current Standpoint magazine on how both dry AND wet weather, according to the Greens, are due to Catastrophic Antropogenic Global Warming.

Here's how he starts:
Poetry, said Auden, makes nothing happen. Usually it doesn't, but sometimes a poem gets quoted in a national argument because everybody knows it, or at least part of it, and for the occasion a few lines of familiar poetry suddenly seem the best way of summing up a viewpoint. Just such an occasion has occurred recently in Australia.  By the time the heavy rains first hit Queensland early this year, the theory of Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming (CAGW, to borrow the unlovely acronym) was ceasing to exercise unquestioned thrall in the minds of Australia's progressive voters. But spokespersons for the Green party clung on to it, encouraged by the fact that the theory, in its Climate Change form, was readily applicable to any circumstances. 

Before the floods, proponents of the CAGW view had argued that there would never be enough rain again, because of Climate Change. When it became clear that there might be more than enough rain, the view was adapted: the floods, too, were the result of Climate Change. In other words, they were something unprecedented. Those opposing this view — those who believed that in Australia nothing could be less unprecedented than a flood unless it was a drought — took to quoting Dorothea Mackellar's poem "My Country", which until recently every Australian youngster was obliged to hear recited in school. In my day we sometimes had to recite it ourselves, and weren't allowed to go home until we had given evidence that we could remember at least the first four lines of the second stanza, which runs like this.

I love a sunburnt country,
A land of sweeping plains,
Of ragged mountain ranges,
Of droughts and flooding rains.
I love her far horizons,
I love her jewel-sea,
Her beauty and her terror —
The wide brown land for me.

http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/critique-march-11-the-drumming-of-an-army-clive-j...





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