Australian Politics Forum - Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain

gizmo_2655

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #135 - Feb 23^rd, 2011 at 8:47pm

No, more of a theromstat effect...

Look I'll make it easy...

Climate Change is a natural phenomenon and will occur at it's natural rhythm no matter what we do, or do not do, just as it has for Billions of years.

To believe that humans have, in our extremely short stay here, managed to influence climate is incredibly arrogant, not to mention, laughable...

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It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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perceptions_now

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #136 - Feb 24^th, 2011 at 5:47pm

muso wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2011 at 2:33pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2011 at 2:22pm:

So you're saying that the earth's surrounded by a semi-rigid, impervious envelope??

Gee, guess the whole space program WAS a fake then...

Don't be obtuse. I'm explaining the concept of an equilibrium by giving you an analogy. Can you see what I'm getting at or not?

Muso,
Can't you see, that Gizmo doesn't want to see!

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #137 - Feb 24^th, 2011 at 6:52pm

perceptions_now wrote on Feb 24^th, 2011 at 5:47pm:

muso wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2011 at 2:33pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2011 at 2:22pm:

So you're saying that the earth's surrounded by a semi-rigid, impervious envelope??

Gee, guess the whole space program WAS a fake then...

Don't be obtuse. I'm explaining the concept of an equilibrium by giving you an analogy. Can you see what I'm getting at or not?

Muso,
Can't you see, that Gizmo doesn't want to see!

No, Gizmo 'wants' to follow the scientific method...Unlike the AGW religion...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain Reply #138 - Feb 24^th, 2011 at 7:41pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 24^th, 2011 at 6:52pm: No, Gizmo 'wants' to follow the scientific method...Unlike the AGW religion... Well that's a good start. Did you check the graph and see what I meant on the previous post?
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perceptions_now

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #139 - Feb 24^th, 2011 at 8:14pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 24^th, 2011 at 6:52pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Feb 24^th, 2011 at 5:47pm:

muso wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2011 at 2:33pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2011 at 2:22pm:

So you're saying that the earth's surrounded by a semi-rigid, impervious envelope??

Gee, guess the whole space program WAS a fake then...

Don't be obtuse. I'm explaining the concept of an equilibrium by giving you an analogy. Can you see what I'm getting at or not?

Muso,
Can't you see, that Gizmo doesn't want to see!

No, Gizmo 'wants' to follow the scientific method...Unlike the AGW religion

...

I'll stand by my assessment, until I see some flicker of the acceptance of reality, which you steadfastly avoid!

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #140 - Feb 24^th, 2011 at 9:47pm

perceptions_now wrote on Feb 24^th, 2011 at 8:14pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 24^th, 2011 at 6:52pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Feb 24^th, 2011 at 5:47pm:

muso wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2011 at 2:33pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2011 at 2:22pm:

So you're saying that the earth's surrounded by a semi-rigid, impervious envelope??

Gee, guess the whole space program WAS a fake then...

Don't be obtuse. I'm explaining the concept of an equilibrium by giving you an analogy. Can you see what I'm getting at or not?

Muso,
Can't you see, that Gizmo doesn't want to see!

No, Gizmo 'wants' to follow the scientific method...Unlike the AGW religion

...

I'll stand by my assessment, until I see some flicker of the acceptance of reality, which you steadfastly avoid!

ok PN, produce 'proof', other than 'the IPCC says so'....

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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muso

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #141 - Feb 25^th, 2011 at 7:09am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 24^th, 2011 at 9:47pm:

ok PN, produce 'proof', other than 'the IPCC says so'....

Mate, consider to yourself for a moment (you don't have to say anything) that you might have been duped, caught hook line and sinker by the nonsense that's written on this subject.

Now I'm actually trying to explain to you the basics of the greenhouse effect and you're saying things to me that demonstrate that you don't really grasp the basics.

Just approach it from an open minded perspective. That's all I ask I'm trying to take you through the science, and I've seen enough common sense posts from you on other topics to convince me that I'm not wasting my time.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #142 - Feb 25^th, 2011 at 7:51am

muso wrote on Feb 25^th, 2011 at 7:09am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 24^th, 2011 at 9:47pm:

ok PN, produce 'proof', other than 'the IPCC says so'....

Mate, consider to yourself for a moment (you don't have to say anything) that you might have been duped, caught hook line and sinker by the nonsense that's written on this subject.

Now I'm actually trying to explain to you the basics of the greenhouse effect and you're saying things to me that demonstrate that you don't really grasp the basics.

Just approach it from an open minded perspective. That's all I ask I'm trying to take you through the science, and I've seen enough common sense posts from you on other topics to convince me that I'm not wasting my time.

Have you considered that you might have been duped too???

If you post from an open minded perspective, I'll look at it with an open mind....but as long as you post from the point of view that human action is causing warming, and then try to justify it with talk about the greenhouse effect, I won't bother....

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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muso

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #143 - Feb 25^th, 2011 at 8:51am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 25^th, 2011 at 7:51am:

muso wrote on Feb 25^th, 2011 at 7:09am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 24^th, 2011 at 9:47pm:

ok PN, produce 'proof', other than 'the IPCC says so'....

Mate, consider to yourself for a moment (you don't have to say anything) that you might have been duped, caught hook line and sinker by the nonsense that's written on this subject.

Now I'm actually trying to explain to you the basics of the greenhouse effect and you're saying things to me that demonstrate that you don't really grasp the basics.

Just approach it from an open minded perspective. That's all I ask I'm trying to take you through the science, and I've seen enough common sense posts from you on other topics to convince me that I'm not wasting my time.

Have you considered that you might have been duped too???

If you post from an open minded perspective, I'll look at it with an open mind....but as long as you post from the point of view that human action is causing warming, and then try to justify it with talk about the greenhouse effect, I won't bother....

Mate, I understand the mechanism, and I'm trying to explain it to you. Can we continue? Let's concentrate on the science instead of the religious catchphrases.

Don't come to any conclusions until you've thought it through.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #144 - Feb 25^th, 2011 at 9:59am

muso wrote on Feb 25^th, 2011 at 8:51am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 25^th, 2011 at 7:51am:

muso wrote on Feb 25^th, 2011 at 7:09am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 24^th, 2011 at 9:47pm:

ok PN, produce 'proof', other than 'the IPCC says so'....

Mate, consider to yourself for a moment (you don't have to say anything) that you might have been duped, caught hook line and sinker by the nonsense that's written on this subject.

Now I'm actually trying to explain to you the basics of the greenhouse effect and you're saying things to me that demonstrate that you don't really grasp the basics.

Just approach it from an open minded perspective. That's all I ask I'm trying to take you through the science, and I've seen enough common sense posts from you on other topics to convince me that I'm not wasting my time.

Have you considered that you might have been duped too???

If you post from an open minded perspective, I'll look at it with an open mind....but as long as you post from the point of view that human action is causing warming, and then try to justify it with talk about the greenhouse effect, I won't bother....

Mate, I understand the mechanism, and I'm trying to explain it to you. Can we continue? Let's concentrate on the science instead of the religious catchphrases.

Don't come to any conclusions until you've thought it through.

The problem is, you consider Co2 to be the cause of climate change.....

I however consider Co2 to be an effect of climate change, and the scientific evidence is sufficently ambiguous to support both beliefs...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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muso

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #145 - Feb 25^th, 2011 at 10:44am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 25^th, 2011 at 9:59am:

The problem is, you consider Co2 to be the cause of climate change.....

I however consider Co2 to be an effect of climate change, and the scientific evidence is sufficently ambiguous to support both beliefs...

No. I consider there to be an equilibium between temperature and atmospheric greenhouse gases. When you add something to one side of the equation, the system changes.

You are simplifying what I say to the point of not making any sense.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #146 - Feb 25^th, 2011 at 11:14am

muso wrote on Feb 25^th, 2011 at 10:44am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 25^th, 2011 at 9:59am:

The problem is, you consider Co2 to be the cause of climate change.....

I however consider Co2 to be an effect of climate change, and the scientific evidence is sufficently ambiguous to support both beliefs...

No. I consider there to be an equilibium between temperature and atmospheric greenhouse gases. When you add something to one side of the equation, the system changes.

You are simplifying what I say to the point of not making any sense.

So you don't think that Co2 is causing climate warming???

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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muso

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #147 - Feb 25^th, 2011 at 1:19pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 25^th, 2011 at 11:14am:

muso wrote on Feb 25^th, 2011 at 10:44am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 25^th, 2011 at 9:59am:

The problem is, you consider Co2 to be the cause of climate change.....

I however consider Co2 to be an effect of climate change, and the scientific evidence is sufficently ambiguous to support both beliefs...

No. I consider there to be an equilibium between temperature and atmospheric greenhouse gases. When you add something to one side of the equation, the system changes.

You are simplifying what I say to the point of not making any sense.

So you don't think that Co2 is causing climate warming???

So you don't think that CO2 contributes to the Greenhouse Effect? Without CO2, you'd be frozen solid. Add more CO2 and it will get (on average) warmer, but it's not a simple cause and effect relationship. You can't have it both ways, either it's a greenhouse gas or it isn't.

What you're saying amounts to saying that you can fill a glass with water only to a certain level, and that if you keep adding water beyond that, the level will remain constant.

Let me check if I understand you correctly?

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« Last Edit: Feb 25^th, 2011 at 1:25pm by muso »

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #148 - Feb 25^th, 2011 at 1:54pm

muso wrote on Feb 25^th, 2011 at 1:19pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 25^th, 2011 at 11:14am:

muso wrote on Feb 25^th, 2011 at 10:44am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Feb 25^th, 2011 at 9:59am:

The problem is, you consider Co2 to be the cause of climate change.....

I however consider Co2 to be an effect of climate change, and the scientific evidence is sufficently ambiguous to support both beliefs...

No. I consider there to be an equilibium between temperature and atmospheric greenhouse gases. When you add something to one side of the equation, the system changes.

You are simplifying what I say to the point of not making any sense.

So you don't think that Co2 is causing climate warming???

So you don't think that CO2 contributes to the Greenhouse Effect? Without CO2, you'd be frozen solid. Add more CO2 and it will get (on average) warmer, but it's not a simple cause and effect relationship. You can't have it both ways, either it's a greenhouse gas or it isn't.

What you're saying amounts to saying that you can fill a glass with water only to a certain level, and that if you keep adding water beyond that, the level will remain constant.

Let me check if I understand you correctly?

Yes Co2 is a greenhouse gas, as is water vapour, methane and ozone...
But so what?? Human contribution of Co2 to the atmosphere is pretty negligible really.....

Ok, on the assumption that climate change is natural, it must have an upper limit to the 'warming' part of the cycle, yes?..
So if humans add to the greenhouse gases (by emitting Co2), is that a 'major' problem?...if we (hypothetically) add 0.002% to the GHG mix, this might increase the temperature by 0.002% while the temperatures are on the 'up swing' cycle...

However, when the natural warming cycle ends, and the cooling starts, that 0.002% means the cooling cycle might be slower and not reach as low a temperature as normal....

In truth, SO WHAT????.......Instead of the world temperatures peaking at 16 Celsius, they'll peak a 16.002 Celsius....not exactly a major difference is it???

Temperatures go up, and temperatures go down, and have for as long as the Earth has existed.....And there's really nothing we can do about it, except adapt ....

Someone in this thread (I think it was Ernie) responded to a comment of mine that CC was natural with a line like "So when the sea levels rise 6m that's ok cause it's natural".....

Well no, a 6m sea level rise might be a problem, given how close to the coast lines we tend to live.......but it's not going to be 'catastrophic' unless it happens in ridiculously short time ( a day, a week, a month, a year etc)...

In all truth, we have as much chance of stopping climate change as we do of stopping winter, or sunset....we might have to change our living styles a bit, to cope with it....but humans, as a species, have done that lots of times before...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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muso

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Re: Climate Change Is the Culprit in Extreme Rain
Reply #149 - Feb 25^th, 2011 at 2:59pm

Groan. How long ago did you do a science subject, Gizmo? Percent of a Celsius temperature? Roll Eyes

OK - back to being non judgmental - On the weekend, between doing some translations, I'll get back to the Greenhouse effect.

Understanding the greenhouse effect plus a little bit of carbon accounting will make it easier to understand.

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