Australian Politics Forum - Middle class welfare

cods

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Re: Middle class welfare
Reply #15 - Feb 13^th, 2011 at 5:21am

Dnarever wrote on Feb 12^th, 2011 at 11:41pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 12^th, 2011 at 9:47pm:

Do you think you were getting to much welfare to start with?

If you are normally employed you do not get enough to survive, the benifit is inadequate for a normal person.

The vast majority hate to be unemployed for any period of time.

XXXXXXXXXX

I would like to think that is so dna.. I do know two men that make a career out of it though.. and it tend to put your back up a bit, but my son has had his problems getting employment he got caught up with those bloody awful govt green programs that went nowhere..very disheatening..

however I did read where apprentices get something like $5 a week more than the dole.. and thats terrible..they are usually kids doing the work no one else will do..we need to treat them with more respect..

not sure about the dole..maybe we need a system where it tapers off after a certain length of time.. if you expect to get the full amount then you need to be retrained or at least doing community work..

we cant keep paying people to sit on their bums.. if its not enough to live on.. then dont live on it... get out and work

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imcrookonit Ex Member	Re: Middle class welfare Reply #16 - Feb 13^th, 2011 at 6:40am Of course the dole is not enough to live on. It is what is known as survival money.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52054 At my desk.	Re: Middle class welfare Reply #17 - Feb 13^th, 2011 at 7:57am Quote: If you are normally employed you do not get enough to survive, the benifit is inadequate for a normal person. Can you explain this please? Why did you qualify with a 'normal' person and with 'normally employed'?
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JC Denton

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Re: Middle class welfare
Reply #18 - Feb 13^th, 2011 at 8:00am

cods wrote on Feb 13^th, 2011 at 5:21am:

Dnarever wrote on Feb 12^th, 2011 at 11:41pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 12^th, 2011 at 9:47pm:

Do you think you were getting to much welfare to start with?

If you are normally employed you do not get enough to survive, the benifit is inadequate for a normal person.

The vast majority hate to be unemployed for any period of time.

XXXXXXXXXX

I would like to think that is so dna.. I do know two men that make a career out of it though.. and it tend to put your back up a bit, but my son has had his problems getting employment he got caught up with those bloody awful govt green programs that went nowhere..very disheatening..

however I did read where apprentices get something like $5 a week more than the dole.. and thats terrible..they are usually kids doing the work no one else will do..we need to treat them with more respect..

not sure about the dole..maybe we need a system where it tapers off after a certain length of time.. if you expect to get the full amount then you need to be retrained or at least doing community work..

we cant keep paying people to sit on their bums.. if its not enough to live on.. then dont live on it... get out and work

I agree with you on the apprenticeships point, but you can say that about a lot of part-time work as well. There is a major disincentive to get out of bed in the morning if you're receiving money on the dole or the DSP to do a few hours of work knowing that by the end of the week, your payment will be subtracted by a certain amount and those few hours or so of work may only translate into about 40 extra bucks. Most people are just going to say "f*ck it" and stay home.

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Kat

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Re: Middle class welfare
Reply #19 - Feb 13^th, 2011 at 8:07am

JC Denton wrote on Feb 13^th, 2011 at 8:00am:

cods wrote on Feb 13^th, 2011 at 5:21am:

Dnarever wrote on Feb 12^th, 2011 at 11:41pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 12^th, 2011 at 9:47pm:

Do you think you were getting to much welfare to start with?

If you are normally employed you do not get enough to survive, the benifit is inadequate for a normal person.

The vast majority hate to be unemployed for any period of time.

XXXXXXXXXX

I would like to think that is so dna.. I do know two men that make a career out of it though.. and it tend to put your back up a bit, but my son has had his problems getting employment he got caught up with those bloody awful govt green programs that went nowhere..very disheatening..

however I did read where apprentices get something like $5 a week more than the dole.. and thats terrible..they are usually kids doing the work no one else will do..we need to treat them with more respect..

not sure about the dole..maybe we need a system where it tapers off after a certain length of time.. if you expect to get the full amount then you need to be retrained or at least doing community work..

we cant keep paying people to sit on their bums.. if its not enough to live on.. then dont live on it... get out and work

I agree with you on the apprenticeships point, but you can say that about a lot of part-time work as well. There is a major disincentive to get out of bed in the morning if you're receiving money on the dole or the DSP to do a few hours of work knowing that by the end of the week, your payment will be subtracted by a certain amount and those few hours or so of work may only translate into about 40 extra dollars. Most people are just going to say "f*ck it" and stay home.

Also, DSP pensioners (who generally receive much more money anyway,
compared to NoStart recips) can earn MUCH more in p/t earnings than the u/e
before their 'benefit' is slashed.

AND their payment is not slashed anywhere NEAR as ruthlessly.

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JC Denton

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Re: Middle class welfare
Reply #20 - Feb 13^th, 2011 at 8:12am

Kat wrote on Feb 13^th, 2011 at 8:07am:

JC Denton wrote on Feb 13^th, 2011 at 8:00am:

cods wrote on Feb 13^th, 2011 at 5:21am:

Dnarever wrote on Feb 12^th, 2011 at 11:41pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 12^th, 2011 at 9:47pm:

Do you think you were getting to much welfare to start with?

If you are normally employed you do not get enough to survive, the benifit is inadequate for a normal person.

The vast majority hate to be unemployed for any period of time.

XXXXXXXXXX

I would like to think that is so dna.. I do know two men that make a career out of it though.. and it tend to put your back up a bit, but my son has had his problems getting employment he got caught up with those bloody awful govt green programs that went nowhere..very disheatening..

however I did read where apprentices get something like $5 a week more than the dole.. and thats terrible..they are usually kids doing the work no one else will do..we need to treat them with more respect..

not sure about the dole..maybe we need a system where it tapers off after a certain length of time.. if you expect to get the full amount then you need to be retrained or at least doing community work..

we cant keep paying people to sit on their bums.. if its not enough to live on.. then dont live on it... get out and work

I agree with you on the apprenticeships point, but you can say that about a lot of part-time work as well. There is a major disincentive to get out of bed in the morning if you're receiving money on the dole or the DSP to do a few hours of work knowing that by the end of the week, your payment will be subtracted by a certain amount and those few hours or so of work may only translate into about 40 extra dollars. Most people are just going to say "f*ck it" and stay home.

Also, DSP pensioners (who generally receive much more money anyway,
compared to NoStart recips) can earn MUCH more in p/t earnings than the u/e
before their 'benefit' is slashed.

AND their payment is not slashed anywhere NEAR as ruthlessly.

Do you have any graphs for this? I was under the impression that the slashes are about the same for both. I know the DSP is about $300 more per fortnight than Newstart though.

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« Last Edit: Feb 13^th, 2011 at 8:37am by JC Denton »

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Equitist

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Re: Middle class welfare
Reply #21 - Feb 13^th, 2011 at 8:14am

The taper and cut-off rates for all Welfare payments are unduly savage - and are worse for some...

The effective marginal tax rates on Welfare payments have been identified as a significant socio-economic issue for a very long time - by a plethora of economists, sociologists and other commentators...

As have the raft of reverse-means-tested WEALTHfare payments that Howard and Costello introduced and increased at the other end of the Welfare-WEALTHfare spectrum...

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Equitist

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Re: Middle class welfare
Reply #22 - Feb 13^th, 2011 at 8:18am

JC Denton wrote on Feb 13^th, 2011 at 8:12am:

Do you have any graphs for this? I was under the impression that the slashes are about the same for both. I know the DSP is about $300 more per fortnight than Newstart though.

I doubt that there are many graphs out there - but the respective payment levels, income thresholds and taper rates and cut-off levels will be buried in various holes within the virtual rabbit warren that is www.centrelink.gov.au...

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Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!

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freediver

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Re: Middle class welfare
Reply #23 - Feb 13^th, 2011 at 8:21am

A convenient way of thinking about it is the 'effective marginal tax rate'. That is, for every dollar you earn, how much do you lose in reduced payments, taxes etc.

It is unfortunate that people only think about the extra money they end up with, not the fact that they are getting themselves off the government teat. I think this is behind calls for reductions in welfare after a certain time. Another problem is that it is politically incorrect to make people feel ashamed of being on the dole by calling them a dole bludger. It is a similar problem to obesity. You can't call a spade a spade because someone will take offence and have a hard luck story about why they can't help themselves. So you end up with a bunch of overweight dole bludgers and the community reinforces their belief that it is not their fault, just so they don't offend the 1% of them who genuinely can't help it.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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JC Denton Gold Member Offline Posts: 5492 Gender:	Re: Middle class welfare Reply #24 - Feb 13^th, 2011 at 8:22am I'm through trying to make sense of the Centrelink webpage Equitist
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Kat

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Re: Middle class welfare
Reply #25 - Feb 13^th, 2011 at 8:24am

Equitist wrote on Feb 13^th, 2011 at 8:18am:

JC Denton wrote on Feb 13^th, 2011 at 8:12am:

Do you have any graphs for this? I was under the impression that the slashes are about the same for both. I know the DSP is about $300 more per fortnight than Newstart though.

I doubt that there are many graphs out there - but the respective payment levels, income thresholds and taper rates and cut-off levels will be buried in various holes within the virtual rabbit warren that is www.centrelink.gov.au...

I just went to check, and the Satanlink website is down.

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Kat

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Re: Middle class welfare
Reply #26 - Feb 13^th, 2011 at 8:27am

freediver wrote on Feb 13^th, 2011 at 8:21am:

A convenient way of thinking about it is the 'effective marginal tax rate'. That is, for every dollar you earn, how much do you lose in reduced payments, taxes etc.

It is unfortunate that people only think about the extra money they end up with, not the fact that they are getting themselves off the government teat. I think this is behind calls for reductions in welfare after a certain time. Another problem is that it is politically incorrect to make people feel ashamed of being on the dole by calling them a dole bludger. It is a similar problem to obesity. You can't call a spade a spade because someone will take offence and have a hard luck story about why they can't help themselves. So you end up with a bunch of overweight dole bludgers and the community reinforces their belief that it is not their fault, just so they don't offend the 1% of them who genuinely can't help it.

Actually, it would be the 1% who are the bludgers, NOT the other 99% as you imply.

And yes, the term 'dole-bludger' should be ILLEGAL under the anti-discrimination laws.

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JC Denton Gold Member Offline Posts: 5492 Gender:	Re: Middle class welfare Reply #27 - Feb 13^th, 2011 at 8:29am A good percentage of the long term unemployed and chronically unemployed are probably just unemployable.
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Equitist Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9632 NSW	Re: Middle class welfare Reply #28 - Feb 13^th, 2011 at 8:32am I just happened across this interesting table - which highlights how piss-poor Australia's unemployment benefits are relative to other OECD countries: - http://www.econ.mq.edu.au/Econ_docs/research_seminars/2010_research_seminars/112...
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Equitist

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Re: Middle class welfare
Reply #29 - Feb 13^th, 2011 at 8:36am

Kat wrote on Feb 13^th, 2011 at 8:27am:

freediver wrote on Feb 13^th, 2011 at 8:21am:

A convenient way of thinking about it is the 'effective marginal tax rate'. That is, for every dollar you earn, how much do you lose in reduced payments, taxes etc.

It is unfortunate that people only think about the extra money they end up with, not the fact that they are getting themselves off the government teat. I think this is behind calls for reductions in welfare after a certain time. Another problem is that it is politically incorrect to make people feel ashamed of being on the dole by calling them a dole bludger. It is a similar problem to obesity. You can't call a spade a spade because someone will take offence and have a hard luck story about why they can't help themselves. So you end up with a bunch of overweight dole bludgers and the community reinforces their belief that it is not their fault, just so they don't offend the 1% of them who genuinely can't help it.

Actually, it would be the 1% who are the bludgers, NOT the other 99% as you imply.

And yes, the term 'dole-bludger' should be ILLEGAL under the anti-discrimination laws.

Agreed - and I remain flabbergasted that the Howard Govt ever passed legislation on a policy with such a despicable name as 'Work for the (freaking) Dole'!

Meantime, it pisses me off that so many people fail to appreciate the virtually-insurmountable barriers associated with structural unemployment and under-employment!

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Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!

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