Australian Politics Forum - Proof that Christians are atheists !!

gizmo_2655 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16010 South West NSW Gender:	Re: Proof that Christians are atheists !! Reply #15 - Feb 12^th, 2011 at 1:46pm Quote: Surely, if there is a doG then there could only be one Why only one???....surely there can be as many as the different human tribes/cultures feel like inventing.... After all Man makes Gods in his own image....
Back to top	"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition. It's similar to a strawman fallacy" Bobbythebat IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Proof that Christians are atheists !!
Reply #16 - Feb 12^th, 2011 at 2:19pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Feb 12^th, 2011 at 10:19am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Feb 11^th, 2011 at 9:52pm:

Christians are often baffled as to how atheists could deny the existence of their god, Yahweh. But they shouldn’t be. Christians deny thousands of the same gods that atheists deny. Atheists just deny one more god than Christians do (or three, maybe).

Christians deny nothing of god's existence. Their dispute is with the worship of (what they'd term) false gods over their one god. All supernatural faculties attributed to the many gods, for Christians, are all vested in the one... They have more common cause with Muslims and Hindus than atheists, who disbelieve in the proposition that god/s exist.

The saying 'man creates god in his own image' should be turned around: 'man creates his world it his god's image'. It makes much more sense.

All metaphysics is about the nature of this world and us in it. Disputes over gods are disputes over the justifications of human actions, laws, social organisations and relationshi[ps among people.

Back to top

IP Logged

gizmo_2655 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16010 South West NSW Gender:	Re: Proof that Christians are atheists !! Reply #17 - Feb 12^th, 2011 at 2:20pm No, soren, I'll stick with my version thanks....
Back to top	"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition. It's similar to a strawman fallacy" Bobbythebat IP Logged

Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 111572 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Proof that Christians are atheists !! Reply #18 - Feb 12^th, 2011 at 2:49pm Muso. Quote: Thelastnail has at last revealed himself to be as human as anybody else. Lexicophilia is a rather quaint, albeit immature religion. On the other hand - you can't just make up your own meanings of words to suit you argument.
Back to top	IP Logged

Sir lastnail

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 30334
Gender: male

Re: Proof that Christians are atheists !!
Reply #19 - Feb 12^th, 2011 at 5:03pm

muso wrote on Feb 12^th, 2011 at 11:23am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Feb 11^th, 2011 at 10:28pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 11^th, 2011 at 10:07pm:

But atheism is the absence of belief that ANY deities exist.

not according to the dictionary definition Wink

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist

Quote:

a·the·ist
/ˈeɪθiɪst/ Show Spelled[ey-thee-ist] Show IPA
–noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

You see, we all have common ground. TLN has an irrational belief too - Lexicophilia - the belief that the dictionary (any dictionary) will enable us to derive precise meanings for any term, religious included and solve the deepest philosophical quandaries, stop interpersonal conflicts, global nuclear wars and annoying personal itches.

what's the point of debating an issue if you keep wanting to change the meaning of the words to suit your argument ??

Also you should refrain from using fallacies in your replies Sad

Back to top

« Last Edit: Feb 12^th, 2011 at 5:14pm by Sir lastnail »

"All of the arab states have said we will have peace with Israel when there is a state of Palestine as a UN member state and properly constituted." - Jeffrey Sachs.

IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Proof that Christians are atheists !!
Reply #20 - Feb 12^th, 2011 at 10:11pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Feb 12^th, 2011 at 5:03pm:

muso wrote on Feb 12^th, 2011 at 11:23am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Feb 11^th, 2011 at 10:28pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 11^th, 2011 at 10:07pm:

But atheism is the absence of belief that ANY deities exist.

not according to the dictionary definition Wink

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist

Quote:

a·the·ist
/ˈeɪθiɪst/ Show Spelled[ey-thee-ist] Show IPA
–noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

You see, we all have common ground. TLN has an irrational belief too - Lexicophilia - the belief that the dictionary (any dictionary) will enable us to derive precise meanings for any term, religious included and solve the deepest philosophical quandaries, stop interpersonal conflicts, global nuclear wars and annoying personal itches.

what's the point of debating an issue if you keep wanting to change the meaning of the words to suit your argument ??

Also you should refrain from using fallacies in your replies Sad

The meaning of words like religion, God, believe, etc depend very much on the religious position of that person. A Muslim will define and comprehend these terms differently from an Atheist or a Buddhist.

I used to be an active member of Atheists.com a long time ago, until I realised that I can't take a position on something that is cognitively meaningless to me. These recycled arguments are meaningless too.

Your arguments are not very subtle, and I have a strong feeling that the subtleties of the cosmological argument would be lost on you.

You choose a single definition from a dictionary that usually has many, and you expect everybody else to agree that the definition is the one true definition. It's a dishonest position to argue from. You don't apply your own principles, but expect others to.

If I were a theist, I'd probably give a damn. I was an atheist once, and as I see it, the quality of atheists has gone downhill since then.

"De gustibus non est disputandum" is my personal opinion. A statement like "I believe in God" or "I don't believe in God" has as much relevance to me as "I take two sugars in my coffee".

Belief in God is by necessity a personal thing. I won't debate whether somebody takes two sugars in their coffee or not, and I certainly won't waste my time debating an equally personal position, such as "I believe in God" where God and religion can really be whatever you choose to define them as.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Feb 12^th, 2011 at 10:23pm by muso »

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 111572 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Proof that Christians are atheists !! Reply #21 - Feb 12^th, 2011 at 10:52pm Muso - if you can just make up your own meanings of words to suit you argument then you can say that A=B=C therefore A=C and you can prove anything because you have provided the equivalence with your own definition. That doesn't mean it's right.
Back to top	IP Logged

Lisa Jones

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 39047
Sydney
Gender: female

Re: Proof that Christians are atheists !!
Reply #22 - Feb 12^th, 2011 at 10:58pm

The meaning of words like religion, God, believe, etc depend very much on the religious position of that person. A Muslim will define and comprehend these terms differently from an Atheist or a Buddhist.

I used to be an active member of Atheists.com a long time ago, until I realised that I can't take a position on something that is cognitively meaningless to me. These recycled arguments are meaningless too.

Your arguments are not very subtle, and I have a strong feeling that the subtleties of the cosmological argument would be lost on you.

You choose a single definition from a dictionary that usually has many, and you expect everybody else to agree that the definition is the one true definition. It's a dishonest position to argue from. You don't apply your own principles, but expect others to.

If I were a theist, I'd probably give a damn. I was an atheist once, and as I see it, the quality of atheists has gone downhill since then.

"De gustibus non est disputandum" is my personal opinion. A statement like "I believe in God" or "I don't believe in God" has as much relevance to me as "I take two sugars in my coffee".

Belief in God is by necessity a personal thing. I won't debate whether somebody takes two sugars in their coffee or not, and I certainly won't waste my time debating an equally personal position, such as "I believe in God" where God and religion can really be whatever you choose to define them as.

- Global Moderator Muso

Some very interesting and valid points raised there.

Your response prompted me to recall the "Johari Window" concept.

I may need to start a separate topic on that though.

Back to top

If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

IP Logged

Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 111572 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Proof that Christians are atheists !! Reply #23 - Feb 12^th, 2011 at 11:21pm Lisa, then you are saying: If A = B and if B=C then A=C. The debate then is all about the " if "
Back to top	IP Logged

gizmo_2655

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 16010
South West NSW
Gender: male

Re: Proof that Christians are atheists !!
Reply #24 - Feb 12^th, 2011 at 11:27pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Feb 11^th, 2011 at 10:28pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 11^th, 2011 at 10:07pm:

But atheism is the absence of belief that ANY deities exist.

not according to the dictionary definition Wink

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist

Quote:

a·the·ist
/ˈeɪθiɪst/ Show Spelled[ey-thee-ist] Show IPA
–noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Are you SURE about that nails???
Even you're own dictionary definition contradicts you...

"–noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings"

Back to top

"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

IP Logged

Lisa Jones

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 39047
Sydney
Gender: female

Re: Proof that Christians are atheists !!
Reply #25 - Feb 12^th, 2011 at 11:58pm

Lisa,
then you are saying:

If A = B and if B=C then A=C.

The debate then is all about the " if "

- Bobby

NO NO NO!! Before we even get to the "IF" debate .. we need to look at A, B, C a little closer because YOUR construction/perception of A (or B or C) may not equal MY construction/perception of A (or B or C).

This isn't maths Bobby. If only it were ..

Back to top

If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Proof that Christians are atheists !!
Reply #26 - Feb 13^th, 2011 at 12:44am

muso wrote on Feb 12^th, 2011 at 10:11pm:

I used to be an active member of Atheists.com a long time ago, until I realised that I can't take a position on something that is cognitively meaningless to me.

Atheism has been confused with anti-theism.

Disbelieving is not an act of believing nor in itself a "call to arms" against those who do.

If you disbelieve the proposition that god/s exist then there's not much more to be said.

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

BigOl64

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 14438
Townsville QLD
Gender: male

Re: Proof that Christians are atheists !!
Reply #27 - Feb 13^th, 2011 at 6:48am

Sir lastnail wrote on Feb 11^th, 2011 at 9:52pm:

Christians are often baffled as to how atheists could deny the existence of their god, Yahweh. But they shouldn’t be. Christians deny thousands of the same gods that atheists deny. Atheists just deny one more god than Christians do (or three, maybe).

You realise that does not make christians athieists, it makes them monotheists.

Thank god they invented velco shoes or you would never be able to go outside. Grin

Back to top

IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Proof that Christians are atheists !!
Reply #28 - Feb 13^th, 2011 at 7:41am

Bobby. wrote on Feb 12^th, 2011 at 10:52pm:

Muso - if you can just make up your own meanings of

words to suit you argument then you can say that

A=B=C therefore A=C and you can prove anything

because you have provided the equivalence with your own definition.

That doesn't mean it's right.

You're trying to apply rigorous logic to the human condition. Let me explain it from my 'window'.

A guy in a restaurant (let's call him Alan) says to his colleague "This curry is delicious, you should try some". He is obviously enjoying the meal judging from his body language.

Person B (Barry) then decides to order a curry. He takes the first bite, splutters and gasps. His body language indicates extreme disgust.

"You defined this curry as being delicious", he protests. "This is the worst thing I've ever had in my mouth. How could you lie like that? You can't just make up your own meanings of words. "

Meantime Barry's boyfriend Charlie arrives and sits down next to them at the table.

- This is my boyfriend, Charlie, isn't he a sexy guy?

By his body language, and the fact that he's choking on his curry, Alan clearly disagrees. In fact, he's trying to think of an excuse right now to get home to his wife and kids.

Now do you understand what I'm saying? Those terms that are subject to individual human taste, perception, culture etc are not possible to define as rigidly as you would want in order to win an argument.

Religion is one of these things. De gustibus non est disputandum.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Feb 13^th, 2011 at 7:59am by muso »

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Proof that Christians are atheists !!
Reply #29 - Feb 13^th, 2011 at 7:53am

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12^th, 2011 at 10:58pm:

Your response prompted me to recall the "Johari Window" concept.

I may need to start a separate topic on that though.

Yes. Lao Zi invented the concept of individual windows on the world in the "Daodejing" about 2500 years ago, but that's a separate topic again.

He extended the concepts of windows or frames of reference to relative good and bad. Now I know that we see different things out of our windows in that respect, but "de gustibus non est disputandum".

Quote:

The Horse

Once upon a time in a village in ancient China there was an old man who lived alone with his son. They were very poor. They had just a small plot of land outside the village to grow rice and vegetables and a rude hut to live in. But they also had a good mare. It was the son's pride and joy, and their only possession of value.

One day the mare ran away.The old man's friends came to him and commiserated. "What a wonderful mare that was!" they said. "What bad fortune that she ran off!"
"Who can tell?" the old man said.

Two weeks later the mare returned accompanied by a fine barbarian stallion. Friends and neighbors all came around and congratulated the old man. "Now you have your mare back, and that stallion is as fine as any in the land. What a stroke of good fortune!"
"Who can tell?" the old man said.
Two weeks later the son fell off the stallion while riding and broke his leg. Friends of the old man came to him to express their sympathy. "It's too bad your son broke his leg, and right before the planting season, too. What bad luck!"
"Who can tell?" the old man said.

Two weeks later, war came to the land, and all able-bodied young men were drafted. The troop that contained the men from the village was at the front in a bloody engagement, and the entire troop was lost. All the men from the village died in battle.

The young man with the broken leg stayed home. His leg healed. He and his father bred many fine horses, and tended their fields.

(Huai Nan Tzu)

Back to top

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged