Australian Politics Forum - Consciousness in a physical universe.

Jan

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Re: Consciousness in a physical universe.
Reply #45 - Jan 31^st, 2011 at 8:47pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 31^st, 2011 at 5:16pm:

[quote]Jan wrote
What has you not mentioning drug companies or bankers got anything to do with my answer? Must I be as uninformed as you appear to be, just to answer more inane questions? You asked I answered, precisely

You're joking, right?
Cite the exact claims I've made and how they are linked to bankers and drug companies.

Can you NOT read ... read the paragraph again ... and does this mean I can't answer with precise answers if it mentions any subject outside of YOUR parameters?

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Jan wrote
There is no onus on me, if you don't know what good is that's your problem and accounts for your lack of knowledge, and answering questions with questions

Do you even know how arguments work? Obviously not. If you make a claim, like 'what is good', then the onus is on you to prove it. Your whole argument sits on this premise, so if you can't even explain it, let alone ground it, then what the hell are you even on a debate forum for?
I can't prove a negative.

Whats the negative ... good?
Debate is where you ask a question it gets replied with an ANSWER,

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Jan wrote
It's both, and if you had a conscience it would be self evident. So you believe those things make you who you are? The lazy way out, blame it on everyone else?
Life is what we make it . "Learn" from mistakes.

So the 'good' is now avoiding pain and acting outside the physical. This is not self-evident at all;

That is not what I said ... you once again deliberately take my words out of contex and that is not argument it's lying.

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if it is self-evident then it's based on intuition emanating from the mind/body split; something which you stated before your position wasn't predicated on.

I wont answer you again as you obviously don't have a conscience and so anything I say will be twisted. You can't even lie sensibly, but you effectively trash a thread along with any information it contains ... You don't want to know what good is, and even if I explained it the way you want me to it would be useless because you don''t know what it is in the first place.

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Also, how does your 'good' claim to be the only one in a world where about 5 million other versions of 'good' exist? What gives your 'good' a grounding over the other few million?

Your looking more stupid by the minute

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Jan wrote
That depends on the questions asked and the way in which they are asked, and if you ask pathetic and brainwashed questiones expect to get honest replies in return.
I have been saying all along that 'everything is a two way street' but you're only going one way.

I was polite but you're just a rude bitch arn't ya. bugger you too then.

You just proved my point again. Your polite like the Elite are polite with a forked tongue. Besides I'm only providing what you so desperately want from me an angry response, your wish is my command oh master. And I have no intentions of making a slip so that you can have a ahah moment

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Jan wrote
IT doesn't make any laws because IT gave us a conscience to make our own, and freewill is the choice to use our conscience, or not, and accept any consequences that goes with those choices. We made our environment by the choices we have made over millennia, it's now it's now up to us to bring about change by the choices we make and the way we 'Think'

So if the creator has no part in the 'good', what part does it play at all?
Also, by now discounting this creator as the source of your 'good', you've fallen back into subjectivism. Even though grounding a 'good' in mystical mumbo jumbo is ludicrous to begin with..

Again you prove my point ... You have asked this before, I answered. Aren't you making your agenda too self evident!!!

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Jan wrote
We can't escape the environment (we let happen) because we stopped thinking for ourselves. In order to escape it we have to relearn the thinking process, and not follow the rabbit down the rabbit hole. Response and reaction is a choice... The truth will set you free.

You can only choose if you know who or what the mechanisms of control are... Which you seem to avoid like the plague, or have just plain given up and let the control make your decisions for you and respond/react the way they meant you to.

But you stated above that the good is self-evident and now you're saying we only recognise the good if we know the mechanisms of control. So what is it, is it self-evident, or is it obscured by the elite?

No I didn't say that I said you cant CHOOSE

No wonder you carry on like a chook without a head ... you can't bloody read!!

You are now on my ignore list! You're a waste of words

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Consciousness in a physical universe.
Reply #46 - Feb 1^st, 2011 at 1:39pm

Quote:

Jan wrote
Can you NOT read ... read the paragraph again ... and does this mean I can't answer with precise answers if it mentions any subject outside of YOUR parameters?

Squirm all you like.
You claimed I am brainwashed by bankers and drug companies. The onus is on you to make a link between my statements and these two things.

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Jan wrote
Debate is where you ask a question it gets replied with an ANSWER,

That's right. So how about answering the question I put to you.

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Jan wrote
That is not what I said ... you once again deliberately take my words out of contex and that is not argument it's lying.

So the 'good' isn't to be outside the physical or harm someone now?

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Jan wrote
I wont answer you again as you obviously don't have a conscience and so anything I say will be twisted. You can't even lie sensibly, but you effectively trash a thread along with any information it contains ... You don't want to know what good is, and even if I explained it the way you want me to it would be useless because you don''t know what it is in the first place.

Well, if you cease obfuscating and write clearly: "Jan thinks the good is ..." Then I wouldn't be continually asking you to outline the 'good'.
You ought to have done this at the start instead and playing hidey games for 4 pages. The closest I've come to getting it out of you is that it's something beyond the physical and also to not harm others, yet, above you claimed "this is not what I said".
Well then, what the hell is it?

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Jan wrote
Your looking more stupid by the minute

It's a perfectly vaild question to ask how your conception of the 'good' has superiority over the many other varieties floating around.
You're here to debate, right? If not, it's you who is looking stupid.

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Jan wrote
You just proved my point again. Your polite like the Elite are polite with a forked tongue. Besides I'm only providing what you so desperately want from me an angry response, your wish is my command oh master. And I have no intentions of making a slip so that you can have a ahah moment

And you're oh so polite as well aren't you.
I merely asked simple questions, in a polite manner, so I could get a better understanding of what you believe and why you believe it. Yet you replied with "pathetic" and "brainwashing".
If you don't like being asked questions, piss off from a debate forum and go to a chat room.

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Jan wrote
Again you prove my point ... You have asked this before, I answered. Aren't you making your agenda too self evident!!!

Again you fail to answer simple questions.
If the creator has no part in what is 'good', then where does it originate from? It's a perfectly valid question.

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Jan wrote
No I didn't say that I said you cant CHOOSE

No wonder you carry on like a chook without a head ... you can't bloody read!!

Do you have some perverse aversion to answering questions do you?
I simply asked is this: Is this good 'self-evident', as you once claimed, or is it obscured by the elite, as you have also insinuated?
If you know your topic you'd have no problem attempting to justify your positions. However, it's become obvious you really haven't thought through your stance at all. This makes you look kinda dumb.

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Jan wrote
You are now on my ignore list! You're a waste of words

You can run but you can't hide. As long as you sprout your vague mystical views in the presence of someone who's willing to question them, you're going to have the same problem you're having with me.

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Jan Senior Member Offline Elite Politics Posts: 411 SA Gender:	Re: Consciousness in a physical universe. Reply #47 - Feb 2^nd, 2011 at 6:12am Removed to start a new thread
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Axle

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Re: Consciousness in a physical universe.
Reply #48 - Feb 9^th, 2011 at 3:14pm

Quote:

Jan wrote on Jan 29^th, 2011 at 7:24am:

Axle wrote:
[quote]You weren't clear, Jan. I wanted you to be more careful and precise. Metaphors are ok, if that's what you in fact had in mind. What are you saying now? Is consciousness a form of energy or is it entirely something else?

Bloviating waffle, waffle waffle.................

EVERYTHING is energy, even the ether ... as in ethereal.

Ok, like everything else mind according to you is energy therefore it would be physical, measurable and would be subject to the laws of thermodynamics.

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What support do you have for telekineses or telepathy? Mainstream science rejects these purported phenomena. Also, no one claiming such powers has ever succeeded in the Randi challenge to demonstrate such powers for one million dollars?

TK has been studied scientifically but no 'scientists' would ever reveal the results cos it would make them look like idiots. Except for a few studies they remain hidden just as real 'knowledge' has been. As for James Randi I've seen his 'so called' tests in documentaries and it's designed so that it's like proving god exists. No-one will ever win it and he knows it ... even if someone really can use TK.

How do you know who studied it Jan if they haven't come forward as you claim? I suppose they share your bong.

I've looked at the JREF criteria. Go to the site, they're reasonable to me. Psychics with alleged ability should put up or shut up.

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Guess you found this when you googled http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/Telekinesis%20Fact%20or%20fantasy.htm This idiot wasn't performing TK, merely an exercise in basic physics, at no time did he try to use his thoughts.

What else did you clairvoyantly see me do, Jan?

Edited:

Even medical science uses a form of telekinesis to lower bloodpressure by having the patient sit comfortably, holding a lever attached to a BP monitor showing a graph (NOT a digital monitor), to indicate the patient's BP level (via THOUGHT only), ie they're told to CONCETRATE on the graph not their blood pressure ... it works perfectly, no drugs, just THOUGHTS

.

How does that experiment demonstrate anything other than brain states affecting body states? Are you saying that thoughts are non-physical things? If so, then you've contradicted your statement that mind is energy, which is a physical thing.
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Science DOES use a form of telekinesis it's called meditation. I was diagnosed with cancer and refused conventional treatments because the only thing that will cure you of cancer is your own immune system and medical treatments destroy it. They gave me a book and a diary/manual to keep check of doctors and oncologists, and my progress, In the manual was a chapter on "Meditation" and HOW to. I went on a 'healthy diet' took herbs, did meditation, and in 2006 my last test came back showing "No malignancy found"

Also Simply observing and slowing the breath (a form of "meditation") produces a significant reduction in blood pressure.

Medical Meditation has been developed by doctors and meditation experts with the goal of creating a meditation program that helps heal people. Medical meditation not only helps people relax and become stress-free, but also helps prevent and recover from various diseases. Medical meditation utilizes specific postures, hand positions, movements, breathing patterns, and mantras to tailor meditation practices for the treatment of specific ailments. Practitioners of medical meditation report that these practices produce more powerful results than those available through meditation alone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_meditation

How does that demonstrate anything more than the brain affecting body states. Mind could be seen just as brain behaviour. So far all you've said is that mind is energy. I guess we didn't see the billowing smoke when you typed it.

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Geez does that sounds like New Age hippy trippy mishmash? and from medical SCIENCE no less???

Saying that everything is energy and mind is energy isn't really saying anything at all. However , what you are trying to do is make your bs sound legitimate by appealing to a phsyical concept but then trying to load it with your mumbo jumbo. The mumbo jumbo is New Age hippy trash.

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There is also reiki that can cure headaches. Some good advice here http://www.essortment.com/articles/reiki-hand-positions_3858.htm but the one I have 99% success with, is to sit the 'patient' comfortably (because this can take ten minutes or more, so make yourself comfortable too), now rub hands together vigorously untill you feel a magnetic 'pull' when you move your palms apart and together several times (without touching), then place your right palm across the patients forehead (without touching) and in the same way cup your Left palm at the base of the sckul (again without touching), Works for me.

I'd imagine if someone wore a turbin and told you to eat your own crap that would work for you too.

You waffle so much I've run out of space just quoting some of your pearls of crap.

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Axle

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Re: Consciousness in a physical universe.
Reply #49 - Feb 9^th, 2011 at 3:51pm

Quote:

Jan wrote on Jan 29^th, 2011 at 7:29am:

Axle wrote:
[quote]I was trying work out whether you actually know what you're talking about and could provide evidence with a cogent argument. So far, I'm not seeing anything other than some recital of New Age hippy, trippy speil which you expect everyone to unquestioningly swallow.

Anyone can check what I have offered as "information", along with your pitiful attempts to dilute that information, and the information just might be the answers they are looking for, and that makes you 'look lik'e a shill.

Can you imagine what you look like , Jan? Saying that everything is energy and the carbon atom, and thinking some perceived similarity between the brain and ancient symbols amounts to much. Roll Eyes

You've missed a hell of lot of the periodic table, and really, saying that everything is energy and the sacred carbon atom says nothing at all. Yeah, I know, we're not seeing the billowing smokes and other special effects when you spray it.

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Consciousness is a serious topicexcellent philosophical enquiry and experimental research has been carried out on both sides of the argument.

Thought you said mainstream science rejects these phenomena? So lets see the research you mention so we can judge YOUR contributions to this topic, and not just some kitchen hand please

Mainstream science does reject - ESP, telekenis, spirits, and other paranormal mumbo jumbo that you subscribe to. I did state in that quote that there has been excellent philosophical and experimental enquiry on both sides of the debate on consciousness. On the side of the debate that anchor consciousness to the brain are the mainstream philosophers and scientists. Such philosophers include Daniel Dennett, Ned Block, John Searle and Marvin Minsky. As for scientists I guess you would include just about every neuro-scientist on the planet.

Now, there are a few scientists , and they aren't mainstream in their thought that have interesting things to say from the other side of the debate. The side of the debate that your nonsense drowns in laughable disrepute. Such scientists include Charles Tart, Dean Radin and Rupert Sheldrake. Recently, there has been a peer reviewed paper on precognition by Dr Daryl Bem.

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Yes it is ...So why are you trivializing it?

I'm not trivialising good philosophophical and experimental effort I'm trivialising what you say. It's nonsense. Cheesy

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Consciousness in a physical universe. Reply #50 - Feb 9^th, 2011 at 3:56pm Jan wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2011 at 6:12am: To understand our spiritual nature and consciousness in order to live by it there are things we need to study, and the first is sacred geometry that Kabbalah is based on and Freemasons use. Wow - What a load of Kabbalah's.
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Jan

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Re: Consciousness in a physical universe.
Reply #51 - Feb 9^th, 2011 at 11:29pm

Quote:

Ok, like everything else mind according to you is energy therefore it would be physical, measurable and would be subject to the laws of thermodynamics.

So your disputing that everything is made of atoms then? If you aren't then you don't exist. That will save me time and energy.... everytning is measurable

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How do you know who studied it Jan if they haven't come forward as you claim? I suppose they share your bong.
I've looked at the JREF criteria. Go to the site, they're reasonable to me. Psychics with alleged ability should put up or shut up.

Because I read, and I'm too bloody old to smoke a bong that's for your age bracket, are you out of nappies yet?
I did go to the site, it's what I commented on but your 'reasoning' couldn't take it in ... Your claiming to be psychic, you say you know what I know and it's crap, and what I think, so you put up or shut up.

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How does that experiment demonstrate anything other than brain states affecting body states? Are you saying that thoughts are non-physical things? If so, then you've contradicted your statement that mind is energy, which is a physical thing.

Oh boy! I knew you were mentally challenged ... so I won't confuse you anymore.

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Saying that everything is energy and mind is energy isn't really saying anything at all. However , what you are trying to do is make your bs sound legitimate by appealing to a phsyical concept but then trying to load it with your mumbo jumbo. The mumbo jumbo is New Age hippy trash.

OK have it your way, you aren't energy and you don't have a mind.

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I'd imagine if someone wore a turbin and told you to eat your own crap that would work for you too.
You waffle so much I've run out of space just quoting some of your pearls of crap.

That's "turban", and your disgusting

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Can you imagine what you look like , Jan? Saying that everything is energy and the carbon atom, and thinking some perceived similarity between the brain and ancient symbols amounts to much. You've missed a hell of lot of the periodic table, and really, saying that everything is energy and the sacred carbon atom says nothing at all. Yeah, I know, we're not seeing the billowing smokes and other special effects when you spray it.

You don't 'think' about anything, and consider all energy and mind just crap ... so why are you still making stupid comments?
Like I said before you don't exist because your mindless ... so not much more to do than acknowledge the fact .... POOOOFFF your gone.

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Jan Senior Member Offline Elite Politics Posts: 411 SA Gender:	Re: Consciousness in a physical universe. Reply #52 - Feb 9^th, 2011 at 11:31pm muso wrote on Feb 9^th, 2011 at 3:56pm: Wow - What a load of Kabbalah's. Thanks for the reminder muso I was getting to that.
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Jan Senior Member Offline Elite Politics Posts: 411 SA Gender:	Re: Consciousness in a physical universe. Reply #53 - Feb 10^th, 2011 at 4:15pm Removed to start a new thread
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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Consciousness in a physical universe.
Reply #54 - Feb 10^th, 2011 at 5:08pm

Jan wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2011 at 6:12am:

To understand our spiritual nature and consciousness in order to live by it there are things we need to study, and the first is sacred geometry that Kabbalah is based on and Freemasons use.

The ancient egyptians were well versed in the consciousness of man and left evidence of it everywhere and it can still be evidenced in all religions and in politics in all parts of the world

Again .. Look at the similarities of our Cerebral Cortex (the seat of knowledge and reason, all 'thought') and the eye of Horus (or the all seeing eye, third eye)
.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/Seawings/Religion/Spiritual/Cortex-thalam...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/Seawings/Religion/Spiritual/eyeofHorus1.j...

The all seeing eye is perhaps the most prolific of all symbols and it's the vesica piscis.

Symbolism is a very large knowledge base. This is a good start .... Sacred Geometry that all religions use ..."The vesica Pisces" (vessel of the fish)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/Seawings/Religion/Spiritual/aboutus.gif

This is a sign from an actual chapel that still operates. But who knows what the vesica piscis really is?

It's used in almost every church in the world

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/Seawings/Religion/fish05.png

The vesica Piscis is the base symbol of all living things, and the reason the Kabbalah uses it "as the flower of life".

http://www.gogeometry.com/videos/sacred_geometry_vesica_piscis.htm

Also a little more here http://www.halexandria.org/dward097.htm

This video that shows you how it works.

And Fibonacci discovered the sequential numbers of the nautilus, waves, flowers etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoMk0estzXc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ibc8sD5sgw&feature=related

First, what do you mean by "spirituality", then, how is this spirituality linked to geometry?
Also, the links just assumes that everything comes from a football shape when two circles partially overlap. So human beings are born from football shapes? Are we to find our "inner football" and then be at one with the world? What do the shapes want?
Also, where is the link between the big bang and the footballs? Is there a link at all?

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Axle

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Re: Consciousness in a physical universe.
Reply #55 - Feb 10^th, 2011 at 7:01pm

Jan wrote on Feb 9^th, 2011 at 11:29pm:

Quote:

Ok, like everything else mind according to you is energy therefore it would be physical, measurable and would be subject to the laws of thermodynamics.

So your disputing that everything is made of atoms then? If you aren't then you don't exist. That will save me time and energy.... everytning is measurable

Take a close look at what I said Jan. If you can infer that from what I said then you need remedial training.

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How do you know who studied it Jan if they haven't come forward as you claim? I suppose they share your bong.
I've looked at the JREF criteria. Go to the site, they're reasonable to me. Psychics with alleged ability should put up or shut up.

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Because I read, and I'm too bloody old to smoke a bong that's for your age bracket, are you out of nappies yet?
I did go to the site, it's what I commented on but your 'reasoning' couldn't take it in ... Your claiming to be psychic, you say you know what I know and it's crap, and what I think, so you put up or shut up.

Like I said before, you need remedial training.

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How does that experiment demonstrate anything other than brain states affecting body states? Are you saying that thoughts are non-physical things? If so, then you've contradicted your statement that mind is energy, which is a physical thing.

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Oh boy! I knew you were mentally challenged ... so I won't confuse you anymore.

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Hardly answers anything, does it Jan. You're the one here that's not following, and it's quite obvious.

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Saying that everything is energy and mind is energy isn't really saying anything at all. However , what you are trying to do is make your bs sound legitimate by appealing to a phsyical concept but then trying to load it with your mumbo jumbo. The mumbo jumbo is New Age hippy trash.

OK have it your way, you aren't energy and you don't have a mind.

What else do you see that isn't there, Jan?

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Quote:

I'd imagine if someone wore a turbin and told you to eat your own crap that would work for you too.
You waffle so much I've run out of space just quoting some of your pearls of crap.

That's "turban", and your disgusting

I don't think you have any real sensibilities to be offended with,Jan. And you're being precious here, aren't you? Do you recall some of your comments in other threads? In any case, I made the point. You've got no real foundation for your woo woo nonsense but only your gullibility.

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Can you imagine what you look like , Jan? Saying that everything is energy and the carbon atom, and thinking some perceived similarity between the brain and ancient symbols amounts to much. You've missed a hell of lot of the periodic table, and really, saying that everything is energy and the sacred carbon atom says nothing at all. Yeah, I know, we're not seeing the billowing smokes and other special effects when you spray it.

You don't 'think' about anything, and consider all energy and mind just crap ... so why are you still making stupid comments?
Like I said before you don't exist because your mindless ... so not much more to do than acknowledge the fact .... POOOOFFF your gone.

[/quote]

Again, you're not really responding to anything actually written. How about you take off, Jan. I started this thread and it had some promise until you dropped in with nonsense that you find in conspiracy magazines like New Dawn and Nexus.

How about you stay in your own thread instead of dumping your crap in mine. And do, of course, invite the Illuminati, Freemasons and Elite to respond. Roll Eyes

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Consciousness in a physical universe.
Reply #56 - Feb 11^th, 2011 at 1:02am

Because I read, and I'm too bloody old to smoke a bong that's for your age bracket, are you out of nappies yet?

- Jan

Oh boy! I knew you were mentally challenged ... so I won't confuse you anymore.

- Jan

Could you kindly desist in making these types of personal attacks on others. It's needless and most uncalled for.

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Jan

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Re: Consciousness in a physical universe.
Reply #57 - Feb 11^th, 2011 at 6:15am

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 28^th, 2011 at 3:53pm:

I am going to infer here, but correct me if I am wrong, that what you imply to be 'good' is some kind of universal act given to us by the creator devoid of any material or physical infestation?

If so, it's predicated on the debunked mind/body split.

And I replied to that "I have absolutely no idea what that sentence means, it makes no sense at all."

I had no idea what you meant because you used the word PREDICATED ie. Predicate 1. Assert or affirm as TRUE or existant 2. (followed by on) found or base (a statement) on.

ie you were saying that what I had said was 'right'.

So in essence you were AFFIMING that was correct ... from a debunking site?

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Jan

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Re: Consciousness in a physical universe.
Reply #58 - Feb 11^th, 2011 at 7:19am

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 11^th, 2011 at 1:02am:

Because I read, and I'm too bloody old to smoke a bong that's for your age bracket, are you out of nappies yet? - Jan

I was replying to this "reply #48 "How do you know who studied it Jan if they haven't come forward as you claim? I suppose they share your bong. - Axle

and in the same post was this comment, which I notice you don't consider an 'attack': "Reply #48 I'd imagine if someone wore a turbin and told you to eat your own crap that would work for you too.- Axle

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Oh boy! I knew you were mentally challenged ... so I won't confuse you anymore. - Jan

And that reply came after deliberately taking my posts out of contex and constant baiting with inane replies ... I'm only too happy to explain myself and my meanings, and and give respectful replies ... but it is hard being respectful of someone who is being deliberately disrespectful.

There were also these comments that didn't get a notice from you, On Page 3 of this thread. Reply #44...."I was polite but you're just a rude bitch arn't ya. bugger you too then"

His/her posts were anything but polite.

There was also this comment that I found equally distasteful:

"The answer there IMO, is to fight them off, and kill them if necessary.
We are here for our own lives and not to be the servant of some other dweeb who will only realise their follies on their death bed.

Kill and let kill."

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Could you kindly desist in making these types of personal attacks on others. It's needless and most uncalled for.

Absolutely!! When others desist.

Stop playing favourites it doesn't look good on a fair and judicious moderator.

It would be nice to get a fair go. I didn't make a nasty or disrespectful post untill I was baited and harrassed.. I know I sound pretentiuos to others because I use correct English and precise with 'information', but that is no reason for spiteful 'attacks' just so 'they' can show how clever they are at using copy, paste banality.

Namaste

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Axle Full Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 107	Re: Consciousness in a physical universe. Reply #59 - Feb 11^th, 2011 at 2:21pm Butter wouldn't melt in your mouth, Jan. It's unfortunate that you have memory difficulties. Start reading Jan from here: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1295701068/15- from the top. "Are you a Yank? You think like one." She starts off here and she goes downhill on a toboggan after that point.
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