Australian Politics Forum - Consciousness in a physical universe.

Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register

Forum rules, Recent posts (with text), RSS, Search options, Browse all uploaded images
Home, Articles, Green Tax Shift, Evolution,

Australian Politics Forum › Member Run Boards › Spirituality › Consciousness in a physical universe.

(Moderator: Sprintcyclist)

‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5

Consciousness in a physical universe. (Read 9855 times)

Jan

Senior Member

Offline

Elite Politics

Posts: 411
SA
Gender: female

Re: Consciousness in a physical universe.
Reply #30 - Jan 29^th, 2011 at 7:24am

Axle wrote:
Quote:

You weren't clear, Jan. I wanted you to be more careful and precise. Metaphors are ok, if that's what you in fact had in mind. What are you saying now? Is consciousness a form of energy or is it entirely something else?

Sigh! I guess being an old cow I'll just have to chew my cud 'again'. I have been so precise that a kindy pupil could fathom what I have said ... but knowing you're just being a pain in the arse and wanting to air your pseudo knowledge is no excuse for me to capitulate and deny others who are genuinely curious and want to learn.
Let's see, Anyone here not able to recognise these 'metaphors'? "The 'brain' is merely the 'computer', thought is the software that makes it work." ?

Didn't you learn about the carbon atom at school? EVERYTHING is energy, even the ether ... as in ethereal.

Quote:

What support do you have for telekineses or telepathy? Mainstream science rejects these purported phenomena. Also, no one claiming such powers has ever succeeded in the Randi challenge to demonstrate such powers for one million dollars?

TK has been studied scientifically but no 'scientists' would ever reveal the results cos it would make them look like idiots. Except for a few studies they remain hidden just as real 'knowledge' has been. As for James Randi I've seen his 'so called' tests in documentaries and it's designed so that it's like proving god exists. No-one will ever win it and he knows it ... even if someone really can use TK.

Guess you found this when you googled http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/Telekinesis%20Fact%20or%20fantasy.htm This idiot wasn't performing TK, merely an exercise in basic physics, at no time did he try to use his thoughts. Even medical science uses a form of telekinesis to lower bloodpressure by having the patient sit comfortably, holding a lever attached to a BP monitor showing a graph (NOT a digital monitor), to indicate the patient's BP level (via THOUGHT only), ie they're told to CONCETRATE on the graph not their blood pressure ... it works perfectly, no drugs, just THOUGHTS.

Science DOES use a form of telekinesis it's called meditation. I was diagnosed with cancer and refused conventional treatments because the only thing that will cure you of cancer is your own immune system and medical treatments destroy it. They gave me a book and a diary/manual to keep check of doctors and oncologists, and my progress, In the manual was a chapter on "Meditation" and HOW to. I went on a 'healthy diet' took herbs, did meditation, and in 2006 my last test came back showing "No malignancy found"

Also Simply observing and slowing the breath (a form of "meditation") produces a significant reduction in blood pressure.

Medical Meditation has been developed by doctors and meditation experts with the goal of creating a meditation program that helps heal people. Medical meditation not only helps people relax and become stress-free, but also helps prevent and recover from various diseases. Medical meditation utilizes specific postures, hand positions, movements, breathing patterns, and mantras to tailor meditation practices for the treatment of specific ailments. Practitioners of medical meditation report that these practices produce more powerful results than those available through meditation alone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_meditation

Geez does that sounds like New Age hippy trippy mishmash? and from medical SCIENCE no less???

There is also reiki that can cure headaches. Some good advice here http://www.essortment.com/articles/reiki-hand-positions_3858.htm but the one I have 99% success with, is to sit the 'patient' comfortably (because this can take ten minutes or more, so make yourself comfortable too), now rub hands together vigorously untill you feel a magnetic 'pull' when you move your palms apart and together several times (without touching), then place your right palm across the patients forehead (without touching) and in the same way cup your Left palm at the base of the sckul (again without touching), Works for me.

Quote:

What evidence do you have to claim that your consciousness is energy of any form? Can you measure it any way?

Can you measure your thoughts? Can you prove there's a god? Or prove that the bible is the "word of g-d".

Like I said EVERYTHING is made of carbon atoms and we know they are real, or do you want to dispute that too?

Quote:

Maybe you're not as astute as you think you are. You seem to have a New Age hippy trippy mishmash of concepts concerning consciousness. In other words, you really don't come across as having much of a grasp on it at all. Your resort to ad hominem attacks reinforces this. It also tells me you're not as enlightened as you purport to be.

Oh now it's your turn for ad hominens.

I'm a little more ASTUTE than you because I don't have to google everything, I came by my knowledge personally and the hard way, not by googling.

But at least you googled to try and prove me wrong. That's a start.

The Victors write the History But echoes of truth remain. Those who muffle echoes fear the truth

IP Logged

Jan

Senior Member

Offline

Elite Politics

Posts: 411
SA
Gender: female

Re: Consciousness in a physical universe.
Reply #31 - Jan 29^th, 2011 at 7:29am

Axle wrote:
Quote:

I was trying work out whether you actually know what you're talking about and could provide evidence with a cogent argument. So far, I'm not seeing anything other than some recital of New Age hippy, trippy speil which you expect everyone to unquestioningly swallow.

Anyone can check what I have offered as "information", along with your pitiful attempts to dilute that information, and the information just might be the answers they are looking for, and that makes you 'look lik'e a shill.

Quote:

Consciousness is a serious topic

Yes it is ...So why are you trivializing it?

Quote:

excellent philosophical enquiry and experimental research has been carried out on both sides of the argument.

Thought you said mainstream science rejects these phenomena? So lets see the research you mention so we can judge YOUR contributions to this topic, and not just some kitchen hand please

Quote:

Can you draw from any of these sources to make a case for your claims?

I already have ... Now it's your turn!!

The Victors write the History But echoes of truth remain. Those who muffle echoes fear the truth

IP Logged

Jan

Senior Member

Offline

Elite Politics

Posts: 411
SA
Gender: female

Re: Consciousness in a physical universe.
Reply #32 - Jan 29^th, 2011 at 8:02am

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 28^th, 2011 at 3:53pm:

But our conscience is intimately attached to the society in which we live. The content of one's conscience, and the presiding of what is 'good' or 'bad' is defined by the mores of the culture.

That is what the bible and the elite have taught us. Conscience belongs to ourselves alone, it's attached to nothing but ourselves. I've said this all before.

Quote:

'Good' and 'bad' is held in place by a system of punishments and rewards; and you cannot abstract them from the culture in which they take place, i.e. there's no universal good or bad.

What a pathetic attitude, This is the attitude the elite wanted, and as their system of laws fail and people become more discontent and and less caring they increase the laws. Anyone have any idea at all as to how many laws there are today?

And the rewards are not much better than the punishments, they all make people greedy and demanding.

Quote:

Plus, free will is a highly tricky scope of inquiry. It's not as simple as "choosing" what we want to do. We are caught in the causal link of events, therefore, we are always subjected to constraints of some kind. Also, one's underlying psychical inclinations often tend one to act in certain ways, hence 'free will' becomes quite complicated when we take into account the unconscious.

You have no idea what freewill is. There is always a choice to be good or bad and that's the extent of it is. It's not about obeying the law or not, What your talking about is supply and demand.

Quote:

I am going to infer here, but correct me if I am wrong, that what you imply to be 'good' is some kind of universal act given to us by the creator devoid of any material or physical infestation?

choosing good is NOT an action, it comes from within, and yes it is devoid of the materialistic, but choosing bad definitely carries a physicallity to it.

Quote:

If so, it's predicated on the debunked mind/body split.

I have absolutely no idea what that sentence means, it makes no sense at all.

The Victors write the History But echoes of truth remain. Those who muffle echoes fear the truth

IP Logged

Jan Senior Member Offline Elite Politics Posts: 411 SA Gender:	Re: Consciousness in a physical universe. Reply #33 - Jan 29^th, 2011 at 8:22am Quote: 'Good' and 'bad' is held in place by a system of punishments and rewards; and you cannot abstract them from the culture in which they take place I think I know what you meant when you wrote this but the word 'abstract' is not the word you needed. I thnk you meant to use 'extract', or 'extricate'.
Back to top	The Victors write the History But echoes of truth remain. Those who muffle echoes fear the truth IP Logged

Postmodern Trendoid III

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 10300
Gender: male

Re: Consciousness in a physical universe.
Reply #34 - Jan 29^th, 2011 at 9:35am

Quote:

Jan wrote
I have absolutely no idea what that sentence means, it makes no sense at all.

That doesn't surprise me. Anyone with a cursory interest in consciousness knows about the the mind/body split or duality. If you are unaware of the history of your own position, how do you expect me to take you seriously?
I've conversed with you 'mystics' thousands of times. It's the same everytime; always vague, always obfuscate, and then abuse.

Quote:

Jan wrote
That is what the bible and the elite have taught us.

Rubbish. The bible does not teach that our conscience is shaped by the culture in which we live. It tries to transcend it, which is exactly what you're preaching.
And who's this "elite" you keep speaking of? Be clear, outline exactly who they are. Don't be vague.

Quote:

Jan wrote
What a pathetic attitude, This is the attitude the elite wanted, and as their system of laws fail and people become more discontent and and less caring they increase the laws. Anyone have any idea at all as to how many laws there are today?

Meaningless blather.

Quote:

Jan wrote
You have no idea what freewill is. There is always a choice to be good or bad and that's the extent of it is. It's not about obeying the law or not, What your talking about is supply and demand.

Is that the best you can do?
Just saying we have choice is too simplistic. Can I choose to grow wings? Can I choose to grow another hand? Can I choose to teleport myself to Mars?

Quote:

Jan wrote
choosing good is NOT an action, it comes from within, and yes it is devoid of the materialistic, but choosing bad definitely carries a physicallity to it.

lol. So being good is something deviod of materiality but being bad isn't. Funny. What's also funny is that you haven't even explained what this 'good' is.
I smell the setting up of "i can be good and others can't therefore i am superior". Classic religious and mystic maneuver.

IP Logged

Postmodern Trendoid III

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 10300
Gender: male

Re: Consciousness in a physical universe.
Reply #35 - Jan 29^th, 2011 at 9:52am

Axle wrote on Jan 28^th, 2011 at 5:49pm:

In respect of the outline you gave from Kant, you would have an argument that the dualist camp would lap up. Some inner homunculus which is at odds with the current modular brain of neuroscience. Neuroscience has a binding problem to surmount. A dualist does not have that problem.

I'd like to take up with you your claim that free will is enmeshed in cause and effect or operates under constraints. To say so, is not to adequately argue that it is bound to cause and effect

You are missing or not articulating a necessary assumption. That's ok, I did earlier. The assumption is that we live in a closed universed. If that's the case then free will is an illusion.

However, there comes a voice from physics- Henry Stapp. He takes the view that there has to be something outside the panorama of the universe for wave functions to collapse. There needs to be something to decide on an experiment. It can't be part of things because it would be part of the uncollapsed wave function and nothing would happen.

He therefore believes in a psychological process separate and distinct from the mechanics of the universe.

I am not aware of Stapp. Do you have a good link?

My view of free will is that it has to be cultivated. Although, we are never totally free regardless of how well we discipline ourselves. But we can cultivate ourselves to give us the inner strength and outer awareness which would give us more options to choose from.
The more we are aware of our surroundings and how they operate, and the more self-discipline we possess, the more options that open up to us on what path of action we can choose.
Someone with little self-control will operate purely on instinct or what ever impulse happens to be in their head at that given time. However, someone who is more aware of their own instincts or habitual behaviour knows he can, given he is disciplined enough, choose from several options of behaviour.
Although we can never be totally free because we often find ourselves in circumstances we don't choose to be in. We have to 'go with the flow' so to speak.

IP Logged

gizmo_2655 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16010 South West NSW Gender:	Re: Consciousness in a physical universe. Reply #36 - Jan 29^th, 2011 at 12:28pm Quote: Like I said EVERYTHING is made of carbon atoms and we know they are real, or do you want to dispute that too? You might want to rethink that Jan....not 'everything' is made of carbon atoms... For a start, water isn't, neither is oxygen or hydrogen...
Back to top	"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition. It's similar to a strawman fallacy" Bobbythebat IP Logged

Jan

Senior Member

Offline

Elite Politics

Posts: 411
SA
Gender: female

Re: Consciousness in a physical universe.
Reply #37 - Jan 29^th, 2011 at 2:22pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 29^th, 2011 at 9:35am:

[quote] Jan wrote
I have absolutely no idea what that sentence means, it makes no sense at all.

That doesn't surprise me. Anyone with a cursory interest in consciousness knows about the the mind/body split or duality. If you are unaware of the history of your own position, how do you expect me to take you seriously?
I've conversed with you 'mystics' thousands of times. It's the same everytime; always vague, always obfuscate, and then abuse.

Seeing as it was you who came here to do a tag team debunking of everything I have said I consider it is you who's abusing. For a start you now tell me I'm vague obfuscating and abusive, wow that's pretty assumptive (both meanings) on your part.

Perhaps I should have quoted the entire (inference) of the two parts:

Quote:

I am going to infer here, but correct me if I am wrong, that what you imply to be 'good' is some kind of universal act given to us by the creator devoid of any material or physical infestation?

If so, it's predicated on the debunked mind/body split

You try very hard to come across as intelligent using inappropriat words in inappopriate places ie Predicated means affirmed, obfuscation to the max. Now show me where it's been debunked.

1. I don't google everything to find answers,
2.I came by my "position" (your words) through personal events and study of all aspects of 'life' and consider there is no 'split' until death (we are a duality till the full stop) and by duality I don't mean body and mind I mean the duality of nature. If we were a singularity we would be as perfect as IT (which none of us are) and we wouldn't be here arguing the difference.

I use creator only to please the religious, and be understood by those who aren't, because there is no G-d, there is no 'being', there is only an inteligent 'Consciousness', an ethereal universal Intelligence, I consider it an IT, not a person or 'thing'. An IT that doesn't watch over us, doesn't hear or answer prayers, makes no laws, or require our worship or obedience We're on our own from birth. We're given everything we need to survive, learn and make our own way in life. As I have said over and over, we are carbon based atoms that has everything we need for this life and the next. If you care for neither that's your problem. What we become and what we believe comes from what we are taught, (if we're too lazy to learn for ourselves).

As for me not knowing what my history is, that's also arrogant. I learned who and what I am from experience and events and not believing everything I was told and studying for my own benefit, not by being brainwashed by religion or the media.

What is the history of YOUR position?

I don't care if you believe me or not, as it is only important to me, I don't want people to believe as I do, I merely want them to THINK, for their own sake as well for their family and loved ones and for the planet, Not spout all the crap taught by the ELITE.

« Last Edit: Jan 29^th, 2011 at 2:30pm by Jan »

The Victors write the History But echoes of truth remain. Those who muffle echoes fear the truth

IP Logged

Jan Senior Member Offline Elite Politics Posts: 411 SA Gender:	Re: Consciousness in a physical universe. Reply #38 - Jan 29^th, 2011 at 2:28pm Removed to start a new thread as requested.
Back to top	« Last Edit: Feb 11^th, 2011 at 7:31am by Jan » The Victors write the History But echoes of truth remain. Those who muffle echoes fear the truth IP Logged

Jan

Senior Member

Offline

Elite Politics

Posts: 411
SA
Gender: female

Re: Consciousness in a physical universe.
Reply #39 - Jan 29^th, 2011 at 3:14pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 29^th, 2011 at 12:28pm:

Quote:

Like I said EVERYTHING is made of carbon atoms and we know they are real, or do you want to dispute that too?

You might want to rethink that Jan....not 'everything' is made of carbon atoms...

For a start, water isn't, neither is oxygen or hydrogen...

Hey great pick-up Gizmo! You're right Hydrogen and oxygen are atoms in their own right and water is a molecule made up of both of them, what I should have said is just ATOMS.

So few people understand about atoms combining to make molecules and the human body being mostly carbon atoms (along with all other material things that 'matter') that I have forgotten a lot of of the things I have learned over many years (and lack of 'good' debate).

Like most other people I've forgotten more than I remember, and it's good to get back some of that knowledge from people who really do understand and research.

I love it when people actually understand what I'm saying rather than just trying to make me look stupid or making me into a liar or both.

But I'm glad you have been able to 'really' correct me on a point.

Learning is my passion and every contribution is acknowledged, as it refines, and reaffirms my beliefs, and reminds me to be careful "how" I say things as I hate it when anyone goes away with the wrong information.

And damn! I love it when someone finds me wrong on points and doesn't turn it into a slanging match

Thanks again and congratulations

The Victors write the History But echoes of truth remain. Those who muffle echoes fear the truth

IP Logged

it_is_the_light Gold Member Offline Christ Light Posts: 41434 The Pyramid of LIGHT Gender:	Re: Consciousness in a physical universe. Reply #40 - Jan 30^th, 2011 at 6:31am You might want to rethink that Jan....not 'everything' is made of carbon atoms... For a start, water isn't, neither is oxygen or hydrogen... Back to top ___________ everything in the physical universe ie:virtual reality has consciousness do any deny this? so be it namaste -:)
Back to top	ॐ May Much LOVE and CHRISTS LIGHT be upon and within us all.... namasté ▲ - : ) ╰დ╮ॐ╭დ╯ IP Logged

it_is_the_light Gold Member Offline Christ Light Posts: 41434 The Pyramid of LIGHT Gender:	Re: Consciousness in a physical universe. Reply #41 - Jan 30^th, 2011 at 6:35am further true reality is complete consciousness this is the 3rd order of dimension every night you dream you go to the 5th order of vibrational frequency when the pineal gland the 3rd eye excretes dmt and you 'dream' and so it is namaste -:)
Back to top	ॐ May Much LOVE and CHRISTS LIGHT be upon and within us all.... namasté ▲ - : ) ╰დ╮ॐ╭დ╯ IP Logged

Postmodern Trendoid III

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 10300
Gender: male

Re: Consciousness in a physical universe.
Reply #42 - Jan 31^st, 2011 at 11:36am

Quote:

Jan wrote
The elite are those who control our government, creates enemies in order to go to war for profit, or gain even more power, they control the media and own all the international banks (all privately owned), they push all the buttons. They also provide the drug market, pollute our food and water, destroy jobs and control our economy. Theres more but you will only find something to debunk it, so I'll leave it at that, If you can prove me wrong I would love you to offer it up.

So your conception of the 'elite' is connected to your conception of consciousness, conscience, the good, and free will how?
Also, how is the elite connected to use of critical thought? You charge me with being brainwashed by the elite but fail to link how they are connected to critical thought. In case you haven't noticed, I've never referred to drug companies or bankers to back up my position. That's unjustified projection of your behalf.

Quote:

Jan wrote
Well I suppose it is to someone who doesn't even know we have an elite let alone who they are?

You're the one telling the story. It's up to you to define the very terms you use, like 'elite'.

Quote:

Jan wrote
Now THAT is what I call meaningless blather, how trite! Having a choice to BE good or bad means just that .. you personally, your 'general' behaviour ... Growing wings, extra hand teleportation ?? You've been reading too many comics if that is what you call being good or bad

You still haven't outlined what being 'good' is. Nor how it is grouned.
Again, the onus is on you to define and ground the terms you are using.

Quote:

Jan wrote
Let me in on the joke. What's good about being materialistc? or bad reaping physical punishment? and by Physical I mean the pain 'you' experience, if you have a conscience, or the pain you cause others, or perhaps punishment by 'the law'... and don't accuse me of words I have never used, that's classic elitism. Being good is a personal choice... "and everyone has that choice"

Again, what is the 'good' you speak of? Is it merely to cease pain? Is it merely acting outside the physical? Is it both? If so, how do you rip yourself outside the causal link of events? How do you absolve history, education, parental discipline, societal laws, and a plethora of other 'physical' influences that make you who you are? And if you think you can, why does that make you 'good'?

Quote:

Jan wrote
Seeing as it was you who came here to do a tag team debunking of everything I have said I consider it is you who's abusing. For a start you now tell me I'm vague obfuscating and abusive, wow that's pretty assumptive (both meanings) on your part.

Asking questions is not abuse. I was initially polite and merely trying to get you to clarify your position clearer. Then you came in with "pathetic", "brainwashed" etc.
It's a two way street.

Quote:

Jan wrote
1. I don't google everything to find answers,
2.I came by my "position" (your words) through personal events and study of all aspects of 'life' and consider there is no 'split' until death (we are a duality till the full stop) and by duality I don't mean body and mind I mean the duality of nature. If we were a singularity we would be as perfect as IT (which none of us are) and we wouldn't be here arguing the difference.

I use creator only to please the religious, and be understood by those who aren't, because there is no G-d, there is no 'being', there is only an inteligent 'Consciousness', an ethereal universal Intelligence, I consider it an IT, not a person or 'thing'. An IT that doesn't watch over us, doesn't hear or answer prayers, makes no laws, or require our worship or obedience We're on our own from birth. We're given everything we need to survive, learn and make our own way in life. As I have said over and over, we are carbon based atoms that has everything we need for this life and the next. If you care for neither that's your problem. What we become and what we believe comes from what we are taught, (if we're too lazy to learn for ourselves).

If the creator makes no laws, then where does your idea of the 'good' come from? Also, where does free will enter this state of affairs?

Quote:

Jan wrote
What is the history of YOUR position?

Any of the thinkers who state we are a product of the environment and possess genetic traits.

It is false to claim we can escape our environment. Any turn we take in life is merely just a response or reaction to our environment.

IP Logged

Jan

Senior Member

Offline

Elite Politics

Posts: 411
SA
Gender: female

Re: Consciousness in a physical universe.
Reply #43 - Jan 31^st, 2011 at 4:19pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 31^st, 2011 at 11:36am:

What has you not mentioning drug companies or bankers got anything to do with my answer? Must I be as uninformed as you appear to be, just to answer more inane questions? You asked I answered, precisely

Quote:

You still haven't outlined what being 'good' is. Nor how it is grouned.
Again, the onus is on you to define and ground the terms you are using.

There is no onus on me, if you don't know what good is that's your problem and accounts for your lack of knowledge, and answering questions with questions

Quote:

It's both, and if you had a conscience it would be self evident. So you believe those things make you who you are? The lazy way out, blame it on everyone else?
Life is what we make it . "Learn" from mistakes.

Quote:

Asking questions is not abuse. I was initially polite and merely trying to get you to clarify your position clearer. Then you came in with "pathetic", "brainwashed" etc.
It's a two way street.

That depends on the questions asked and the way in which they are asked, and if you ask pathetic and brainwashed questiones expect to get honest replies in return.
I have been saying all along that 'everything is a two way street' but you're only going one way.

Quote:

If the creator makes no laws, then where does your idea of the 'good' come from? Also, where does free will enter this state of affairs?

IT doesn't make any laws because IT gave us a conscience to make our own, and freewill is the choice to use our conscience, or not, and accept any consequences that goes with those choices. We made our environment by the choices we have made over millennia, it's now it's now up to us to bring about change by the choices we make and the way we 'Think'.

Quote:

Any of the thinkers who state we are a product of the environment and possess genetic traits.

Then you are too lazy to even make your own choices and let others do your thinking. No wonder all these bizarre questions.

Quote:

It is false to claim we can escape our environment. Any turn we take in life is merely just a response or reaction to our environment.

We can't escape the environment (we let happen) because we stopped thinking for ourselves. In order to escape it we have to relearn the thinking process, and not follow the rabbit down the rabbit hole. Response and reaction is a choice... The truth will set you free.

You can only choose if you know who or what the mechanisms of control are... Which you seem to avoid like the plague, or have just plain given up and let the control make your decisions for you and respond/react the way they meant you to.

You talk like a defeatist.

The Victors write the History But echoes of truth remain. Those who muffle echoes fear the truth

IP Logged

Postmodern Trendoid III

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 10300
Gender: male

Re: Consciousness in a physical universe.
Reply #44 - Jan 31^st, 2011 at 5:16pm

Quote:

Jan wrote
What has you not mentioning drug companies or bankers got anything to do with my answer? Must I be as uninformed as you appear to be, just to answer more inane questions? You asked I answered, precisely

You're joking, right?
Cite the exact claims I've made and how they are linked to bankers and drug companies.

Quote:

Jan wrote
There is no onus on me, if you don't know what good is that's your problem and accounts for your lack of knowledge, and answering questions with questions

Do you even know how arguments work? Obviously not. If you make a claim, like 'what is good', then the onus is on you to prove it. Your whole argument sits on this premise, so if you can't even explain it, let alone ground it, then what the hell are you even on a debate forum for?
I can't prove a negative.

Quote:

Jan wrote
It's both, and if you had a conscience it would be self evident. So you believe those things make you who you are? The lazy way out, blame it on everyone else?
Life is what we make it . "Learn" from mistakes.

So the 'good' is now avoiding pain and acting outside the physical. This is not self-evident at all; if it is self-evident then it's based on intuition emanating from the mind/body split; something which you stated before your position wasn't predicated on.
Also, how does your 'good' claim to be the only one in a world where about 5 million other versions of 'good' exist? What gives your 'good' a grounding over the other few million?

Quote:

Jan wrote
That depends on the questions asked and the way in which they are asked, and if you ask pathetic and brainwashed questiones expect to get honest replies in return.
I have been saying all along that 'everything is a two way street' but you're only going one way.

I was polite but you're just a rude bitch arn't ya. bugger you too then.

Quote:

Jan wrote
IT doesn't make any laws because IT gave us a conscience to make our own, and freewill is the choice to use our conscience, or not, and accept any consequences that goes with those choices. We made our environment by the choices we have made over millennia, it's now it's now up to us to bring about change by the choices we make and the way we 'Think'.

So if the creator has no part in the 'good', what part does it play at all?
Also, by now discounting this creator as the source of your 'good', you've fallen back into subjectivism. Even though grounding a 'good' in mystical mumbo jumbo is ludicrous to begin with.

Quote:

Jan wrote
We can't escape the environment (we let happen) because we stopped thinking for ourselves. In order to escape it we have to relearn the thinking process, and not follow the rabbit down the rabbit hole. Response and reaction is a choice... The truth will set you free.

You can only choose if you know who or what the mechanisms of control are... Which you seem to avoid like the plague, or have just plain given up and let the control make your decisions for you and respond/react the way they meant you to.

But you stated above that the good is self-evident and now you're saying we only recognise the good if we know the mechanisms of control. So what is it, is it self-evident, or is it obscured by the elite?

IP Logged

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5

‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›

« Forum

‹ Board

Top of this page