Consciousness in a physical universe is problematic. We have a strong sense of self-awareness and free will yet when we cast about we find that the universe seems to run in a deterministic way(Quantum processes also bubble away). Are consciousness and free will illusions? So, what do you think? Is there room for consciousness and free will independent of cause and effect and quantum processes?

Axle wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2011 at 10:57pm:



I can't see how you can sever the link of cause and effect. Most religions try and do this; they claim to stand outside time, space, and causality and have a personal telephone line to god.  However, the religious shroud their position in vague, obscure language. It's predicated on the now debunked mind/body split. Once their position is examined carefully, it comes to light that they haven't transcended cause and effect at all. One only has to look at the social circumstances the religious find themselves in and psychical reactions they have to certain phenomenon to understand how they came to think as they do.

Consciousness is a result of our environment and whatever genetic influences we possess.

If we believe in a close universe and that we're totally material beings then there's no escape from the conclusion that we're bound to cause and effect and whatever freaky indeterministic neuronal firing within our skulls.

However, I would opine that there is a difficulty in accepting this. I don't see matter, for example, being able to perceive meaning in the universe. And I don't think AI will ever bring about consciousness in a computer. It has been living on a long rolled over promissory note.

Computers, it seems, will just be carrying out mindless operations without a hint of consciousness.

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So if we are the same genetic material as the creator wouldn't mindless actions, greed, and consumerism also be part of the creator? I mean, wouldn't these attributes also be an essential part of the creator as well? If not, how does one subvert the creator? How does one "break off" from the creator's "genetic material" and go down an awry path? How does causa sui occur in us regular folk?

Axle wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2011 at 10:57pm:


To quote Descartes  -  Cogito ergo sum.

"To quote Descartes  -  Cogito ergo sum. "

I don't know what conclusion you are drawing from the Cogito. You might like to elaborate.

Axle wrote on Jan 26^th, 2011 at 9:59pm:


"I think, therefore I am".  Thought proves existance.

Amadd wrote on Jan 26^th, 2011 at 9:53pm:


And so do I. The problem people have in recognising truth is because the Elite separated Quantum physics from spirituality ... we are taught in two separate ways and left to pick up the pieces ... You either have to accept Creation OR evolution when in actuallity we should be looking at them 'together', because that's the way it really is, and logic should tell you that.. "There has to be creation before evolution can take place .. Simple!" It just isn't the Darwinian evolution.

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It's not a matter of 'becoming', it's what we ARE. We are spiritual beings in a mortal body..
We are pure energy ie we are made of Carbon atoms (as is all matter), atoms are pure energy and energy cannot be destroyed, it can only be altered, as in dying, the body changes to nutrients to create more energy, (plants etc) while the spirit/soul (who we really are) increases in knowledge and becomes ethereal. Unless of course, if, like the elite, we lose our souls, from a lack of 'nurturing' and care, then you just alter the energy to feed the worms, and grow more trees, as 'thought' has not learned any 'lessons' in order to 'pass' and move forward.  

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Why would anyone want to become anything other than what they are? and controlling others lives is what the elite do and why everyone needs to wake up and remove that control from their lives in order to be what they were meant to be .. 'humane'!

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In that case you would be exactly like the elite, 'souless' and without a future life. Believing this

is what the elite want you to believe, and are merely following their plan for all of mankind.

We already ARE servants, of the elite, and have been for thousands of years, and what you see occurring in the world today is the result of their 'teaching' and control.