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Question: NUCLEAR POLL (choose ALL options that apply): -



« Last Modified by: Equitist on: Dec 1st, 2010 at 9:15am »

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ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power (Read 21167 times)
Miss Anne Dryst
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #240 - Dec 7th, 2010 at 12:32pm
 
It depends on the size of course.
But what China demonstrates is that a nuclear power plant costs $2billion, maybe a little more for Australia, but no where near the silly claims of $10 billion or $25 billion. Be able to get quite a few for those prices.
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Andrei.Hicks
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #241 - Dec 7th, 2010 at 12:34pm
 
Please delete wrote on Dec 7th, 2010 at 12:30pm:
"but a nuclear power plant costs $2billion."

How much do they cost in the USA?

Or in Finland, where one is under construction?

Or in France?

Or Japan?



So you pick and choose when you talk about cost?

Emissions free power.
That is what this provides.

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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #242 - Dec 7th, 2010 at 12:34pm
 
"In 2009, estimates for the cost of a new plant in the U.S. ranged from $6 to $10 billion. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power#Economics

Does your style of flaming have a name?
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Andrei.Hicks
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #243 - Dec 7th, 2010 at 12:37pm
 
wikipedia = "bloke down the pub said"
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #244 - Dec 7th, 2010 at 12:40pm
 
So Hicks, you agree with the man hater that we could build NPPs for $2B?
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #245 - Dec 7th, 2010 at 12:42pm
 
"So you pick and choose when you talk about cost?"

Huh?

I nominated the most equal economies to ours, NOT China.
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #246 - Dec 7th, 2010 at 12:42pm
 
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Dec 7th, 2010 at 12:22pm:
Currently, all spent fuel from Hinkley Point is taken to the British Nuclear Fuels plant at Sellafield for 'reprocessing'. This process extracts any unused uranium and the plutonium formed during fission in the reactor.

Fuel is considered spent after about five years, when it is no longer capable of efficient fission due to the partial loss of fissile material and the build up of impurities such as fission products and actinides. In some respects the word 'spent' is inappropriate, as there is still a significant uranium 235 content.

Since the fuel continues to change once removed from the reactor, due to radioactive decay it is stored for a further four years before reprocessing. This reduces the amount of fission products which have to be dealt with by waste processing.



Abd the FINAL resting place for the sealed containers of what is the final 'processed stage' of STILL radioactive waste rests where ?



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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #247 - Dec 7th, 2010 at 12:43pm
 
"Emissions free power."

If you don't count the waste.
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #248 - Dec 7th, 2010 at 12:50pm
 
Last week President Barack Obama announced a a US$8.3 billion (A$9.3 billion) government loan guarantee to a private company to build twin nuclear reactors in the southern state of Georgia.

What more conclusive proof does one need to demonstrate the economic inviability of nuclear power, even in an industry that is 50 years old? Without such a massive financial crutch, private companies and their investors have declined to fund any new nuclear plants for 37 years — not just in the US, but anywhere in the world.
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As previously outlined, nuclear plants routinely have such financial problems because it is a hugely capital intensive industry. Delays greatly add to the cost of capital long before any revenue is generated. Construction is extremely complex, compounded by safety regulation.

Every new plant or new design is promised to be simpler, cheaper and quicker to build but proves to be the opposite. The most notable example is the plant being constructed by the French state-owned company Areva at Olkiluoto, Finland, which has doubled in costs and construction time.

Today Areva estimates that building the same 1.6 gigawatt reactor would cost $US8 billion ($A9 billion). The US loan guarantee is for 70 to 80 per cent of the total cost of the two 1.1 gigawatt Georgian reactors, thus putting the construction cost at between US$10.4-$11.9 billion. This is broadly comparable with the French costs (US$5-$5.4 billion a gigawatt). Of course, the American reactor has not been built and will not be for almost another decade, based on previous experience. In fact the AP1000 design intended for Georgia has not yet been certified by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission and is not expected to be until the end of next year.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/nuclear-its-just-too-expensive-for-us-and-the-rest-of-the-world-20100225-p4y3.html
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #249 - Dec 7th, 2010 at 12:51pm
 
Diesendorf found the cost of building a new nuclear power plant had risen rapidly since 2002, from more than $US2000 per kw of generation capacity installed, to about $US7400 per kw in 2010 (these are real, not nominal figures), and he expects the trend will continue. (The figures don't count subsidies for nuclear energy such as loan guarantees, land acquired for buffer zones around reactors or decommissioning costs, which would push the cost up.)

http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-cost-of-nuclear-power-is-debatable-20101203-18jwf.html
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #250 - Dec 7th, 2010 at 12:53pm
 
In various forums, including this one on Scitizen, the issue of the cost of constructing new nuclear power plants in the United States has become polemic and controversial. The nuclear industry generally reports construction costs of about $2,000 per installed kilowatt (kW). In one of his posts on Scitizen, Charles Barton points out that the quoted costs of new nuclear plants may be even lower. He argues that construction expenses vary widely and depend on the cost of local labor and government regulation. He estimates that the average cost of building new AP-1000s in China is about $1,200 per installed kW.

A collection of new studies, however, suggest that these figures may underestimate the cost of building new nuclear units by more than a factor of 3. Researchers from the Keystone Center, a nonpartisan think tank, consulted with 27 nuclear power companies and contractors, and concluded in June 2007 that the cost for building new reactors would be between $3,600 and $4,000 per installed kW (with interest). They also projected that the operating costs for these plants would be remarkably expensive: 30 ˘/kWh for the first 13 years until construction costs are paid followed by 18 ˘/kWh over the remaining lifetime of the plant. (For comparison, the average residential price for electricity was about 10 ˘/kWh last year).

Just a few months later, in October 2007, Moody’s Investor Service projected even higher costs due to the quickly escalating price of metals, forgings, other materials, and labor needed to construct reactors. They estimated total costs for new plants, including interest, at between $5,000 and $6,000 per installed kW. Florida Power & Light informed the Florida Public Service Commission in December 2007 that their estimated the cost for building two new nuclear units at Turkey Point in South Florida was $8,000 per installed kW, or a shocking $24 billion. And in early 2008, Progress Energy pegged its cost estimates for two new units in Florida to be about $14 billion plus an additional $3 billion for T&D.

http://scitizen.com/future-energies/how-much-will-new-nuclear-power-plants-cost-_a-14-2287.html
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #251 - Dec 7th, 2010 at 12:59pm
 
6 May 2010-- Progress Energy Inc increased the estimated cost of its proposed 2,200 MW Levy nuclear power plant in Florida and delayed its start-up until 2021 due to a delay in licensing the reactors, uncertainty about federal and state energy policies and a recent credit rating downgrade of Progress Energy Florida.

The company estimates the project could cost up to $22.5 billion, up from its previous estimate of $17.2 billion. The first reactor is now expected to enter service in 2021 and the second, 18 months later. Progress originally estimated the first unit to enter service in 2016 but pushed that date back a year ago.

http://www.powergenworldwide.com/index/display/articledisplay/0954299218/articles/powergenworldwide/nuclear/reactors/2010/05/Progress-plant-delayed.html
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #252 - Dec 7th, 2010 at 1:41pm
 
Please delete wrote on Dec 7th, 2010 at 8:01am:
"there isn't a 'payback' period that affects the tax payer.... "


Gizmo, except for the cost of their product, and the huge tax breaks (and direct subsidies) they will have to receive to get operational.


Which really applies to ANY sort of power/utility infrastructure...

But unless it's government constructed, the payback period is amortised into the costings to the consumer.....just the same as now, part of the powerbill is for construction/maintenance costs..
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #253 - Dec 7th, 2010 at 1:46pm
 
"Which really applies to ANY sort of power/utility infrastructure..."

I don't think that's true any more.

If I'm wrong, feel free, but all power stations in Victoria, for instance, are private, and the new brown coal station is entirely private, is it not?

Of course, in NSW they are owned by the government, but they aren't building any, either. Under the new coalition govt, I expect they'll be privatised post haste, and then we'll see what becomes of taxpayer involvement.

Also, I note that, in other countries, NPPs are insured by the government, since no insurance compamy would take them on.



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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #254 - Dec 7th, 2010 at 1:52pm
 
Please delete wrote on Dec 7th, 2010 at 1:46pm:
"Which really applies to ANY sort of power/utility infrastructure..."

I don't think that's true any more.

If I'm wrong, feel free, but all power stations in Victoria, for instance, are private, and the new brown coal station is entirely private, is it not?

Of course, in NSW they are owned by the government, but they aren't building any, either. Under the new coalition govt, I expect they'll be privatised post haste, and then we'll see what becomes of taxpayer involvement.

Also, I note that, in other countries, NPPs are insured by the government, since no insurance compamy would take them on.



I don't know about the Vic power industry, but I think the NSW ones are part-owned by the government...

Mind you, that does help my argument that the costs of building a reactor would be borne by private industry, not taxpayer funded (directly at any rate)...All major businesses get tax concessions, grants etc because they bring employment and huge amounts of revenue to the state/country they're in..
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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