Australian Politics Forum - ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power

Please delete Gold Member Offline Please delete this smacking PROFILE Posts: 2936	Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power Reply #120 - Dec 1^st, 2010 at 3:33pm "at this moment nuclear power IS illegal" Show me the legislation. It is against the ALP platform, but where is it illegal? If Bailleau or Barnett decided to approve one, who could stop them and how?
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Equitist

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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #121 - Dec 1^st, 2010 at 3:41pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 1^st, 2010 at 3:13pm:

Quote:

I am not using scare tactics: I genuinely fear the uncontrollable energy of nukes - and I don't trust my fellow human beings to design and operate a sufficiently fool-proof and fail-safe system...

Equit, you ARE using the 'greens' scare tactics......Humans have managed to control the "uncontrollable energy" of nuclear reactors for some 60 years....and there've been TWO 'major' incidents in that time...and a few lesser incidents...There have been far more 'accidents' involving coal/gas and hydro power plants in that same time frame..

I hear what you are saying - but I remind you that the absence of a memorable accident does not point to a reduction in risk...

Moreover, there are many 30-40 year old plants which have exceeded the original productive lifespan for which their were engineered - and some of them have been given Govt approval to operate for a further decade...

I especially wouldn't wanna be living near any of those ageing plants - all of which have the ongoing potential to go into meltdown at any time...

The next big meltdown may well be the trigger to shut down the entire industry - this is as much due to physics, business and economics as it is the risk to life, limb and regional neighbourhood...

I wouldn't invest in a nuke plant because it is an inherently bad investment and I wouldn't want my Federal or State Govt to mortgage our nation or state or underwrite the insurance risk of nukes either...

That said, since we have Lib Govts in WA and Vic, I nominate their backyards and their State Budgets to bear the brunt of all associated costs!

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Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!

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viewpoint Gold Member Offline A joke is a very serious thing. [Winston] Posts: 2209 Gender:	Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power Reply #122 - Dec 1^st, 2010 at 3:47pm Well it looks like YOUR poll hasn't turned out the way you intended genius..........lol
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muso

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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #123 - Dec 1^st, 2010 at 3:51pm

Soren wrote on Dec 1^st, 2010 at 12:55pm:

List of civilian nuclear accidents:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_civilian_nuclear_accidents

List of aviation accidents:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_commercia...

You should pray for a nuclear power plant in your backyard and don't even think about going near an airport.

- and flying is several magnitudes safer than driving. Don't even think about driving, or walking near the road as a pedestrian.

The risk associated with nuclear power generation is incredibly low - lower than the risk of a single individual choking to death on a hotdog (except in my case, because it's greater than zero).

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gizmo_2655

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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #124 - Dec 1^st, 2010 at 3:53pm

Please delete wrote on Dec 1^st, 2010 at 3:33pm:

"at this moment nuclear power IS illegal"

Show me the legislation.

It is against the ALP platform, but where is it illegal?

If Bailleau or Barnett decided to approve one, who could stop them and how?

Show me How many nuclear power plants have been approved in Australia??

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Verge

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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #125 - Dec 1^st, 2010 at 3:54pm

I personally would like to see fair dinkum costs analyisis on this subject, only for I have read its so efficient.

If we can keep the fear mongering out of it at a federal or state level we might get some real answers.

The same people who seem to oppose nuclear use the same fear mongering tactics that those who oppose climate change do for theirs.

People need to be realistic that solar engery is far from cost benefical at the moment to capture and wind farms seem to have little support.

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And why not, if you will permit me; why shouldn’t I, if you will permit me; spend my first week as prime minister, should that happen, on this, on your, country - Abbott with the Garma People Aug 13

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Please delete Gold Member Offline Please delete this smacking PROFILE Posts: 2936	Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power Reply #126 - Dec 1^st, 2010 at 3:54pm Gizmo - Show me how many applications have been rejected?
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muso

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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #127 - Dec 1^st, 2010 at 3:55pm

Equitist wrote on Dec 1^st, 2010 at 3:41pm:

Moreover, there are many 30-40 year old plants which have exceeded the original productive lifespan for which their were engineered - and some of them have been given Govt approval to operate for a further decade...

That was a financial lifespan, not an engineering lifespan. Many industrial plants are operated beyond their projected lifespan.

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muso

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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #128 - Dec 1^st, 2010 at 3:57pm

Verge wrote on Dec 1^st, 2010 at 3:54pm:

I personally would like to see fair dinkum costs analyisis on this subject, only for I have read its so efficient.

If we can keep the fear mongering out of it at a federal or state level we might get some real answers.

The same people who seem to oppose nuclear use the same fear mongering tactics that those who oppose climate change do for theirs.

People need to be realistic that solar engery is far from cost benefical at the moment to capture and wind farms seem to have little support.

Solar Thermal is actually more cost beneficial than nuclear generation based on current US designs, however the new generation US nuclear plants are projected to be more cost effective.

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gizmo_2655 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16010 South West NSW Gender:	Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power Reply #129 - Dec 1^st, 2010 at 4:01pm Please delete wrote on Dec 1^st, 2010 at 3:54pm: Gizmo - Show me how many applications have been rejected? Basically ALL of them... How many nuclear plants have been approved??
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longweekend58

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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #130 - Dec 1^st, 2010 at 4:18pm

Please delete wrote on Dec 1^st, 2010 at 10:30am:

"A serious debate without the hysteria. fact filled and with genuine opinions expressed AND permitted."

Again - who is denying anyone the right to speak on this matter?

You are taking an absolutist approach to the question. govt WILL NOT be involved in a deabte on nuclear energy. If you think the neclear question has bene opened up to fair and reasonable debate then Id love to hear when that happened? one bob brown debate with Ziggy Swit doesnt constitute debate. Where is the govt report into it? where are the parliamentary debates or the industry enquiries.

THAT is the debat we are looking for.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #131 - Dec 1^st, 2010 at 4:20pm

Please delete wrote on Dec 1^st, 2010 at 3:33pm:

"at this moment nuclear power IS illegal"

Show me the legislation.

It is against the ALP platform, but where is it illegal?

If Bailleau or Barnett decided to approve one, who could stop them and how?

do you REALLY think it is that simple? you dont think the feds would stop it if they wanted to? the power of canberra over the states is extremely strong but legislatively, constitutionally and via other pressures.

is is actually illegal? without a permit, yes. can that permit be gotten from the existing fed govt? no. answer your question?

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #132 - Dec 1^st, 2010 at 4:24pm

Equitist wrote on Dec 1^st, 2010 at 3:41pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 1^st, 2010 at 3:13pm:

Quote:

I am not using scare tactics: I genuinely fear the uncontrollable energy of nukes - and I don't trust my fellow human beings to design and operate a sufficiently fool-proof and fail-safe system...

Equit, you ARE using the 'greens' scare tactics......Humans have managed to control the "uncontrollable energy" of nuclear reactors for some 60 years....and there've been TWO 'major' incidents in that time...and a few lesser incidents...There have been far more 'accidents' involving coal/gas and hydro power plants in that same time frame..

I hear what you are saying - but I remind you that the absence of a memorable accident does not point to a reduction in risk...

Moreover, there are many 30-40 year old plants which have exceeded the original productive lifespan for which their were engineered - and some of them have been given Govt approval to operate for a further decade...

I especially wouldn't wanna be living near any of those ageing plants - all of which have the ongoing potential to go into meltdown at any time...

The next big meltdown may well be the trigger to shut down the entire industry - this is as much due to physics, business and economics as it is the risk to life, limb and regional neighbourhood...

I wouldn't invest in a nuke plant because it is an inherently bad investment and I wouldn't want my Federal or State Govt to mortgage our nation or state or underwrite the insurance risk of nukes either...

That said, since we have Lib Govts in WA and Vic, I nominate their backyards and their State Budgets to bear the brunt of all associated costs!

RISK is generally calculated on the basis of ACTUAL events. if there are no accidents then an industry is assessed as being low risk. Insurance and Workers compensation operates on that basis. If you want a risk-free life then you are living in the wrong universe. Ours has risks and so far there is a far higher risk of death from just breathing than from nuclear power. Im not saying it is risk free or we shouldnt acknowledege those risks. But we shoudl be ACCURATE and no hysterical about them - as you are.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #133 - Dec 1^st, 2010 at 4:26pm

muso wrote on Dec 1^st, 2010 at 3:55pm:

Equitist wrote on Dec 1^st, 2010 at 3:41pm:

Moreover, there are many 30-40 year old plants which have exceeded the original productive lifespan for which their were engineered - and some of them have been given Govt approval to operate for a further decade...

That was a financial lifespan, not an engineering lifespan. Many industrial plants are operated beyond their projected lifespan.

and it isnt like they havent been maintained and upgraded since. just because something is built to last 30 years doesnt mean it becomes dangerous afterwards. The snowy Mountains scheme also had a 30 year life. they expected however that future generations might maintain upgrade and enhance it - and they did.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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mantra

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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #134 - Dec 1^st, 2010 at 4:27pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 1^st, 2010 at 4:01pm:

How many nuclear plants have been approved??

None. Julia Gillard announced today that "nuclear power was not a viable option for Australia".

Fantastic decision and a brave one especially with the rumblings coming from her Ministry.

Let's see what the media does to her now?

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Poll
Question: NUCLEAR POLL (choose ALL options that apply): -
I support Nuclear Power in OZ 100% I support a Nuke plant in MY backyard I support a Nuke plant in YOUR backyard I'm not sure if I support Nukes in OZ Nukes will cause mass Darwin Awards Nukes: a short term solution & long term problem No way, no Nukes for OZ - never! The LibLabs must stop sabotaging renewables « Last Modified by: Equitist on: Dec 1^st, 2010 at 9:15am »