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Global Economic Downturn to Continue? (Read 97562 times)
perceptions_now
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Re: Global Economic Downturn to Continue?
Reply #90 - Jan 5th, 2011 at 12:56pm
 
America’s 10 worst years start right now


SAN LUIS OBISPO, Calif. (MarketWatch) — Dateline December 2020. Let’s look back on the 2011-2020 decade, at what historians call the “Worst Decade in American History.” Totally predictable, totally denied.

Back in January 2011 we made 10 predictions of a chain of events that would reach a critical mass and consume America in a torrent of creative destruction, crippling capitalism and other outmoded institutions, forcing new power players to step out of shadows and assume leadership in a time of extreme crisis.Now we see how they came true.

“The U.S. economy appears to be coming apart at the seams,” Columbia Professor Robert Lieberman warned back then in the Foreign Affairs Journal. “Unemployment remains at nearly 10%, the highest level in almost 30 years. A long trend of “ballooning incomes at the very top and stagnant incomes in the middle and at the bottom. The share of total income going to the top 1% has increased from roughly 8% in the 1960s to more than 20% today. … a level of economic inequality not seen in the United States since the eve of the Great Depression.”

As the decade opened in 2011 we were being conned again, like before the 2008 meltdown — by the same crooks we bailed out.

The “Gilded Age” bubble from a decade ago ended in a crash worse than 1929, and left us on the brink of a Great Depression 2. We ended up with a decade of increasing battles between the haves and have-nots, where there is no longer room for “compromise” between the two ideologies destroying America from within.

“The Gap,” the divide, the greed, the entitlements, the hostilities are now so entrenched that “negotiations” are impossible and only a catastrophic 1929-style collapse of our self-destructive capitalism and a descent into economic hell will force America to restructure.

Here’s how we got here over the last 10 years:

2011. Wall Street’s super-rich spend billions to control Washington
Thanks to the conservative takeover of America’s so-called democracy the past three decades, from Reagan to Obama, our activist Supreme Court delivered the coup de grace into America’s psyche in 2010, overturning long-established precedent and giving rich owners of zombie corporations absolute rights of live humans, a decision that would have gotten a failing grade in my constitutional law class at the University of Virginia.

2012. Super-Rich gain absolute power over Washington
The bizarre decision, which essentially legalized political bribery, led to billions passing through lobbyists to politicians in all parties, with one goal: A guarantee that all politicians (President, Congress, Fed, regulators and state governments), all adhere to Reaganomics and the ideology that money talks and wealth rules.

As a result, America was no longer a democracy by 2012, not even a plutocracy.

2013. Pentagon’s WWIII global commodity wars accelerate for 2020 peak
Back during the Bush II presidency, Fortune analyzed a classified Pentagon report that predicted “climate could change radically and fast. That would be the mother of all national security issues.” Billions more people will increase unrest across the world, creating “massive droughts, turning farmland into dust bowls and forests to ashes.”

As a result, “by 2020 there is little doubt that something drastic is happening ... an old pattern could emerge; warfare defining human life,” confronting political leaders everywhere with the reality of our civilization collapsing, even the end of life on the planet. This was the year the hard evidence materialized.

2014. Global population bubble accelerating, wasting commodities
By now it had become clear that America’s Conspiracy of the Super-Rich was draining trillions from middle-class taxpayers. They see global population growth (exploding more than 100 million annually) not as a drain on scarce resources but only as a way to get richer through their obsession with free-market “globalization.”

They ignore the coming 2050 tragedies when global population is 9 billion, dwarfing America’s 400 million, and all are demanding more of the Earth’s limited, non-renewable commodity resources, and demanding payback from America’s long failure to heed warnings of environmentalists like Bill McKibben: “Act now, we’re told, if we want to save the planet from a climate catastrophe. Trouble is, it might be too late. The science is settled, and the damage has already begun.”

2015. Gilded Age globalization implodes America’s Global Empire
Around the time of the Pentagon’s WWIII prediction, historian Kevin Phillips warned in “Wealth & Democracy:’ “Most great nations, at the peak of their economic power, become arrogant and wage great world wars at great cost, wasting vast resources, taking on huge debt, and ultimately burning themselves out.”

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Re: Global Economic Downturn to Continue?
Reply #91 - Jan 5th, 2011 at 12:59pm
 
America’s 10 worst years start right now


2016. Wall Street capitalism self-destructs, crashes, mass bankruptcies
“But what if history is not cyclical and slow-moving but arrhythmic, asks Ferguson. “What if collapse does not arrive over a number of centuries but comes suddenly,” too rapid to respond in time. Unfortunately, in our blind greed we refuse to hear “Irrational Exuberance” author Robert Shiller’s warning that “we recently lived through two epidemics of excessive financial optimism … are close to a third episode … another meltdown ... another depression.”

Once again, our leaders ignored history. Ignored Jared Diamond’s earlier warning in “Collapse:” “One of the disturbing facts of history is that so many civilizations share a sharp curve of decline. Indeed, a society’s demise may begin only a decade or two after it reaches its peak population, wealth and power.” The 2016 elections changed nothing.

2017. Middle-class revolution: Buffett’s rich class loses, overthrown
The seeds were planted years ago. Warren Buffett saw the revolution coming: “There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”

By 2017 it had exploded into a new Civil War as all hell broke loose after the 2016 presidential election. The growing income gap popped Wall Street’s bubble for the third time in the 21st century, the economy collapsed, riots spread against another bailout of too-greedy-to-fail Wall Street banks. A class rebellion ignited.

2018. Reaganomics capitalism collapses, Glass-Steagall reinstated
Diamond says he’s a “cautious optimist,” our leaders need “the courage to practice long-term thinking, and make bold, courageous, anticipatory decisions at a time when problems have become perceptible but before they reach crisis proportions.” Deaf, they still fail to act.

The “Crisis of 2018” triggered a cultural revolution, a jarring wake-up call. History warns that most leaders are driven by short-term self-interest not long-term public interests, especially politicians bankrolled by billionaires who can’t see past quarterly earnings, year-end bonuses, the next election. This catastrophe may have finally woken us up.

2019. WWIII commodity wars spread, cost trillions, kill hundreds of millions
Over $30 trillion in federal, state and local debt, plus spending half our budget on the Pentagon’s war machine, finally overwhelmed America’s fiscal policy and the world’s bond markets in 2019.

Unfortunately, the growing number of commodity wars ignited by an accelerating global population and decline in the world’s scarce resources also forced a total rethinking of the balance between spending to contain external threats and a rapid deterioration of social-program needs: employment, retirement, education, health care.

2020. Patriarchy ends: male dominance declines, women leaders rise
Back in 2011 it seemed clear that patriarchy, male dominance world culture, politics and economics throughout history, would collapse all by itself, without women engaging in any direct war, any “battle of the sexes” to defeat men at their own game. But in 2020, women may be our only salvation.

Link -
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/americas-10-worst-years-start-right-now-2011-01...
=================
As usual, there are areas where I agree with the author & those where I disagree!

Timing, in particular, is always a great difficulty, with so many influencing factors.

That said, I agree that -
1) TPTB & Politicians are driven by short-term self-interest not long-term public interests.
2) In our blind greed, we refuse to hear “Irrational Exuberance”.
3) Vested interests, will prevent solutions for Over-Population, until well past the time for action.
4) Vested interests, will prevent solutions for Climate Change, until well past the time for action.
5)  It will likely take a catastrophe to finally wake us up.

Btw, this is Global, not just the USA!


PS - Thanks go to dailyreckoning for highlighting this article, to me.
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Re: Global Economic Downturn to Continue?
Reply #92 - Jan 5th, 2011 at 2:44pm
 
Quote:
I'd like to add  another insightful  paragraph, or two ... Kiss

'Reich draws the parallels between the Great Depression and the Great Recession, particularly the imbalance of wealth concentrated in fewer hands and middle class workers with less income to convert into consumer demand. One of the fascinating devices he found to do this was the writings of Marriner Eccles (Fed chair between '34 to '48):'

"As mass production has to be accompanied by mass consumption, mass consumption, in turn, implies a distribution of wealth - not of existing wealth, but of wealth as it is currently produced - to provide men with buying power equal to the amount of goods and services offered by the nation's economic machinery. Instead of achieving that kind of distribution, a giant suction pump had by 1929-1930 drawn into a few hands an increasing portion of currently produced wealth. This served them as capital accumulations. But by taking purchasing power out of the hands of mass consumers, the savers denied to themselves the kind of effective demand for their products that would justify a reinvestment of their capital accumulations in new plants. In consequence as in a poker game where the chips were concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, the other fellows could stay in the game only by borrowing. When their credit ran out, the game stopped."


Vegi, I haven't actually read the book, but I have read nippets and viewed various video's, including the following -


Reich certainly has a point regarding the concentration of income at the top and the diminution of disposable income amongst the middle class!

As can be seen in the video, the top 1% of people took 23.9% of income in 1928, it then headed south for quite some time, bottoming out around 9% around the time the great Baby Boomer expansion started in the early 1980's, before peaking again at 23.5% in 2007.

However, I would hasten to add that this is not the only factor influencing events, there are actually a number of things pushing the Global Economy south and that will continue for some time.

The thing is, we need to swim with the current of this new Economic river, towards the shore & safety.

Alternatively, if we try to swim against the tide, because that's the direction that TPTB & Politicians had been going to, we will end up drowning.

As I have said previously, this is a new paradigm, but TPTB & the Politicians still don't want to rock THEIR OWN BOAT and as I see it, they probably won't accept change to the status quo, until faced with a catastrophe that finally wakes them & us!
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Re: Global Economic Downturn to Continue?
Reply #93 - Jan 5th, 2011 at 5:49pm
 
...

...

Pretty clear which direction Oil Production has been going & is likely to go in the future!

And, I would suggest that Pricing is mainly the market reacting to Demand & Supply.

The initial escalation starting in 2002 was Demand outstripping supply, which reaching a Peak in 2008, before a crashing Global Economy sent Demand plummeting, followed by a declining Price.

Oil Prices have doubled between early 2009 and now, as the Global Economy has supposedly recovered and the Price may go still a little higher, before the Energy Cost to GDP ratio (plus other factors),  again sends the Global Economy into a downward spiral and along with it lower Energy Demand & lower Oil costs.

So, this is where we are, until the linkage is broken by apparent Oil shortages (rationing) &/or the other factors such as -
1) Demograhpics (Aging & Slowing Population Growth)
2) Debt
3) Climate Change


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Re: Global Economic Downturn to Continue?
Reply #94 - Jan 5th, 2011 at 6:42pm
 
Quote:
The thing is, we need to swim with the current of this new Economic river, towards the shore & safety.

Alternatively, if we try to swim against the tide, because that's the direction that TPTB & Politicians had been going to, we will end up drowning.


I don't entirely agree. I think that the paradigm of nature is the same as it ever was. This is an economic rip tide that will naturally occur when cheap energy supplies become harder to come by. Or where the demand outstrips the available supply.
Attempting to seperate economics and nature is of a world that we do not know as yet.
Dirty Harry had some good advice in that regard. "A man must know his limitations".

If you follow the rip, you will be carried out to sea and will eventually drown. Trying to swim against the current is aslo a fruitless exercise, and drowning will also be the result.
There is only one way to escape a rip, and that is to swim across it towards calmer waters to where there is no rip.
Once this has been accomplished, you can then begin the arduous journey back to shore if there is enough remaining energy to cover the required distance.
Our distance from shore is not decreasing IMO. Throwing money at the problem is attempting to swim against the natural rip tide IMO.

When reality sets in, the only logical conclusion will be that this planet cannot sustain the population that we now enjoy (?)
The top 1% will still be in power, so look the hell out. They will dictate what they require to maintain a semblence of wealth and power. They will readily accept that they must lower world population levels to a more realistic number. How this will be achieved is of a slight (sarc) concern.

So if we, the democratic public, are entrusting our governments to bring about a solution to the lack of required energy to sustain such a large population, then us airy fairy democratists probably deserve our natural and eventual reality...or the reality for our children, or children's children, which begrudgingly, is a reality that I haven't felt able to face.

I'm quite fine with risking my own skin, but the risks to future children would seem a selfish exploit considering my own personal rationalisations of what I see as the reality.

The calmer waters that we must swim to IMO, are not so friendly. They don't promise the required energy to sustain us all atm.

At this current point in time, many will drown in the future. Governments will secure lifejackets for themselves, and big businesses will continue to aim for a QE2 type luxury at the expense of others. They will also probably propogate measures to make their existence more economically sustainable - and that means getting rid of a good portion of the population.iii


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Re: Global Economic Downturn to Continue?
Reply #95 - Jan 5th, 2011 at 7:26pm
 
Amadd wrote on Jan 5th, 2011 at 6:42pm:
Quote:
The thing is, we need to swim with the current of this new Economic river, towards the shore & safety.

Alternatively, if we try to swim against the tide, because that's the direction that TPTB & Politicians had been going to, we will end up drowning.


I don't entirely agree. I think that the paradigm of nature is the same as it ever was. This is an economic rip tide that will naturally occur when cheap energy supplies become harder to come by. Or where the demand outstrips the available supply.
Attempting to seperate economics and nature is of a world that we do not know as yet.
Dirty Harry had some good advice in that regard. "A man must know his limitations".

If you follow the rip, you will be carried out to sea and will eventually drown. Trying to swim against the current is aslo a fruitless exercise, and drowning will also be the result.
There is only one way to escape a rip, and that is to swim across it towards calmer waters to where there is no rip.
Once this has been accomplished, you can then begin the arduous journey back to shore if there is enough remaining energy to cover the required distance.
Our distance from shore is not decreasing IMO. Throwing money at the problem is attempting to swim against the natural rip tide IMO.

When reality sets in, the only logical conclusion will be that this planet cannot sustain the population that we now enjoy (?)
The top 1% will still be in power, so look the hell out. They will dictate what they require to maintain a semblence of wealth and power. They will readily accept that they must lower world population levels to a more realistic number. How this will be achieved is of a slight (sarc) concern.

So if we, the democratic public, are entrusting our governments to bring about a solution to the lack of required energy to sustain such a large population, then us airy fairy democratists probably deserve our natural and eventual reality...or the reality for our children, or children's children, which begrudgingly, is a reality that I haven't felt able to face.

I'm quite fine with risking my own skin, but the risks to future children would seem a selfish exploit considering my own personal rationalisations of what I see as the reality.

The calmer waters that we must swim to IMO, are not so friendly. They don't promise the required energy to sustain us all atm.

At this current point in time, many will drown in the future. Governments will secure lifejackets for themselves, and big businesses will continue to aim for a QE2 type luxury at the expense of others. They will also probably propogate measures to make their existence more economically sustainable - and that means getting rid of a good portion of the population.



Well, I pretty much agree with what you said, except for your first four words!

It seems, in fact, that we may be on a very similar wavelength!
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Re: Global Economic Downturn to Continue?
Reply #96 - Jan 5th, 2011 at 10:03pm
 
World Food Prices Rise to Record on Sugar, Meat Costs


Jan. 5 (Bloomberg) -- World food prices rose to a record in December on higher sugar and meat costs, the United Nations said, exceeding levels reached in 2008 that sparked deadly riots from Haiti to Egypt.

An index of 55 food commodities maintained by the Food and Agriculture Organization climbed for a sixth month to 214.7 points, above the previous all-time high of 213.5 set in June 2008, according to a monthly report posted on the Rome-based UN agency’s website today. The gauges for sugar and meat prices advanced to records.

Sugar climbed for a third year in a row in 2010, and corn jumped the most in four years in Chicago. Food prices may gain further unless global grain production rises “significantly” in 2011, the FAO said Nov. 17. At least 13 people died last year in Mozambique in protests against planned increases in bread and water prices.

“There is still, unfortunately, the potential for grain prices to strengthen on the back of a lot of uncertainty,” Abdolreza Abbassian, senior economist at the FAO, said by phone today. “If anything goes wrong with the South American crop, there is plenty of room for them to increase further.”

Cereals, Cooking Oils

The FAO’s food-price indicator climbed from 206 points in November. Its gauge for sugar prices reached 398.4 points last month, increasing from 373.4 in November. The meat-price index rose to 142.2 points from 141.5.

The agency’s cereal-price index jumped to 237.6 points in December, the highest level since August 2008, from 223.3 the previous month. The indicator for cooking oils advanced to 263 points, the highest since July 2008, from 243.3. The index for dairy prices rose to 208.4 points from 207.8.

Global grain output will have to rise at least 2 percent this year to meet demand in 2011-2012 and avoid further depletion of stocks, the UN agency has said. Concern about dry weather in Argentina helped corn prices to jump 52 percent in Chicago last year.

Link -
http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=auxwKmN9dWuw&pos=3
=============
...
==============
None of this has yet to factor in the Queensland Floods and as yet, it only partly factors in the rising Energy costs!
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Reply #97 - Jan 6th, 2011 at 12:05am
 
Hey Perceptions.
I know Mugabe is laughing at the moment because of the idea that the 'Western World' has come to join his tea party of hyper-inflation.
Ironic that the West instigated Zimbabwe's economic collapse.

Do you know if it is 'just' Western Nations, and those strongly affiliated or dependent (like Australia) upon em - that are experiencing 'Economic Turbulance' currently.

I also agree with Amadd, always best to swim to the side. Don't be enslaved to it and don't fight it ...just move to the side, go about your own thing and it will go away.

Wonder if the Rural areas will find itself flooded with more city workers again this time?

ADVERSITY like this brings about much progress - the world needs this economic adversity! Stagnation has rotted our world for decades.
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SUCKING ON MY TITTIES, LIKE I KNOW YOU WANT TO.
 
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Re:  Global Economic Downturn to Continue?
Reply #98 - Jan 6th, 2011 at 11:49am
 
It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Jan 6th, 2011 at 12:05am:
Hey Perceptions.
I know Mugabe is laughing at the moment because of the idea that the 'Western World' has come to join his tea party of hyper-inflation.
Ironic that the West instigated Zimbabwe's economic collapse.

Do you know if it is 'just' Western Nations, and those strongly affiliated or dependent (like Australia) upon em - that are experiencing 'Economic Turbulance' currently.

I also agree with Amadd, always best to swim to the side. Don't be enslaved to it and don't fight it ...just move to the side, go about your own thing and it will go away.

Wonder if the Rural areas will find itself flooded with more city workers again this time?

ADVERSITY like this brings about much progress - the world needs this economic adversity! Stagnation has rotted our world for decades.



I am pleased to see you both agree with me!

perceptions_now wrote on Jan 5th, 2011 at 2:44pm:
The thing is, we need to swim with the current of this new Economic river, towards the shore & safety.

Alternatively, if we try to swim against the tide, because that's the direction that TPTB & Politicians had been going to, we will end up drowning.



That said, adversity usually bring out the best in people, but on this ocassion, due to the complexities involved, it will likely take a catastrophe to finally wake us up.

Depending on timing, where you are & the final outcome of complex events, we may actually face Stagflation for a while.

However, given the nature of the many headed Hydra that we face, I think the logical outcome (for quite some time) is De-Growth!
...

That is not someting that Economists, Politicians or most people want to hear, but given the following it is difficult to see another likely outcome.

1) The apparent direction of Demographics for the rest of this century.
2) The likely direction of Energy Production for the foreseeable future and how it fits with the current Global Economy.
3) The likely actions required, over the next 50-100 years +, in order to try to offset the worst effects of Climate Change.

And, that's without going into the fact that many of the worlds larger national economies are now broke, bankrupt or they soon will be!  

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Re: Global Economic Downturn to Continue?
Reply #99 - Jan 6th, 2011 at 1:41pm
 
Blame it on the Boomers? Expert sees demographics, not foreclosures, behind housing mess


Welcome to the "Fix-Up, Remodel, Expand and Condominium Era."

That's the spiffy name William Lucy, a professor and housing expert at the University of Virginia, has given to our new decade, the 2010s.


But what's even more interesting is Lucy's take on what really ails the real estate market right now.

The good professor contends the real problem is not foreclosures or a flood of new homes but a grand, demographic quandary.

Basically, we have mismatch, with an epic number of Baby Boomers, numerically the largest generation in history, heading into retirement and looking to sell their homes.

But there is a dearth of 30-to 45-year-old buyers available or even interested in moving on up into these big Boomer suburban palaces.

The numbers, as Lucy lays them out, are startling.


There are now five homeowners 55 and older for each potential first-time buyer between 30 and 44.

That's a 5-to-1 ratio today, compared to 3.5-to-1 in 2000 and 3-to-1 in 1990.

Here are the raw numbers: 35 million potential sellers 55 and up, compared to just 6.5 million potential buyers between 30 and 44 years old.
(Including me, except I bought my Natick fixer-upper from a WWII generation guy back in 2002 and can't afford to buy again and bail out a retiring boomer.)

These numbers should be doubly alarming here in Massachusetts, one of the grayest states in the country and getting older by the day as younger buyers flee to less expensive states.

However, after crunching the numbers, Lucy comes to some unexpected conclusions.

Given the imbalance between homes for sale and buyers we should be looking at an era of falling prices, right?

Not so he contends.

Aging Boomer homeowners hold the trump card here - they don't necessarily have to sell and won't unless they get a price they like.

Instead, Lucy sees a future where the housing market is far less fluid than it has been in years past.

Hence his prediction we were entering the "Fix-Up, Remodel, Expand and Condominium Era."

Instead of settling for long commutes to bigger homes in the outer suburbs, the up-and-coming generation of buyers in their 30s and 40s is more likely to prefer the convenience of the inner suburbs, even if that means fixing up an older home or buying a condo.


I have reservations about the professor's grand theories - the housing bubble and bust were pretty complex and single shooter theories seem overly simplistic.

Yet the role of demographics in the current housing mess definitely deserves more attention. And the implications are certainly sweeping - we may be locked into a longer-term shift that defies the typical boom bust pattern.


If nothing else, some Boomers may want to start rethinking their retirement plans.


Link -
http://www.boston.com/realestate/news/blogs/renow/2011/01/blame_it_on_the.html
=======================
Let me put this into some context, by show the follow charts -

New US Privately Owned Housing Starts - 10 Year Graph
...

New US Privately Owned Housing Starts - 49 Year Graph
...

USA Population, 1960-2000
...

USA Recessions 1900-Now
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_qA8QmxrSIpk/SjJf7NmaWdI/AAAAAAAAAGY/DqhcDgXnTg8/s400/USrecessions

With A Population of 180 Million in 1960, to a current Population of around 308 Million, it stands to reason that Demand has risen considerably, for most things.

But new housing is NOT one of those things!

Whilst it has followed the cyclical Recession pattern, it has also trending down, with the current lows being consdierably lower than in previous Recessions, despite the total Population being 70% higher!

There are forces in play, other than the usual reasons that are trotted out & they include -

Firstly, the actual Population Growth rate has been slowing since 1965.

2nd, the professor is correct, the Baby Boomer hump is affecting the numbers of sellers & buyers and therefore the price.

3rd, the affordability of housing & the availability of Debt.

However, I'm not sure I can agree with the professor, on whether the Boomers will have as much choice on whether to sell or not, given that many will have depended on the equity in their house, as a large part of funding their retirement and clearly maintaining a job past the 65 years, may present some difficulty!
 
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Re: Global Economic Downturn to Continue?
Reply #100 - Jan 6th, 2011 at 9:34pm
 
The Financial Crisis was NOT caused by Peak Oil


Personally, I mark the "public" moment of this financial crisis to July 2007, when two Bear Stearns hedge funds were both completely wiped out. Neither had anything to do with oil or oil trades. Both were highly leveraged funds that were simply in way over their heads. And those funds were symptomatic of the entire financial industry at that time.

The signs of the impending collapse had been building for a while. A few people had been pointing to the "Greenspan bubble" as early as 2005. I freely admit that I missed those calls in the 2004-2005 period but I won't deny that some people did make them. And that was well before oil prices spiked. So the fix was in long before.

The Greenspan bubble (or the last Greenspan bubble) came in response to the dot-com bust which was caused by the prior Greenspan bubble. See a pattern here yet? That prior Greenspan bubble happened during the era of $10 oil. Peak oil didn't burst that bubble either. The bubble popped because all such bubbles pop. And the reason it popped was nothing to do with oil prices and everything to do with herding behaviors as the herd recognized in a very short time frame that they had been sold a bill of goods.

Likewise the current bubble burst as toxic mortgages began failing causing the MBS based on those securities to fail, leading to catastrophic losses, starting with (for example) some of those hedge funds I mentioned. Again, this had nothing to do with peak oil and everything to do with herding behavior, as the holders of MBS began to realize that these securities would never pay back the capital invested in them, let alone the interest promised. None of these people cared about peak oil or were formulating positions based on peak oil. They were simply interested in recouping their capital and hopefully their promised profits, but if not, at least their capital. Instead they suffered massive losses of capital and zero profits because the financial instruments involved were created deliberately as acts of fraud by the banks that created them.

Did Peak Oil cause the Great Depression? Did Peak Oil cause the dot-com bust? Did Peak Oil cause the Tulip mania? Did Peak Oil cause the large recession after the Civil War? If it did not (and it did not, trust me) then why should I believe that "this time it's different"? The onus of proof is on those making the extraordinary claim that Peak Oil caused this recession. Yet I have never seen real proof that this is so. Sure, you can point to some correlations between oil price and financial crisis, but I can point to correlations of oil price and prior financial crisis before oil peaked in North America. Correlation is not causation. To establish causation requires a whole lot more work than just plotting a graph showing correlation and then proclaiming "See!" And that, so far, is all that anyone has done.

Peak oil will place a hard cap on the scope of recovery of the global economy, since the global economy is based on fossil fuels (primarily oil). That hard cap will limit and frustrate all political responses to the financial crisis and in the end, peak oil may be part of the cause of the fall of some governments over the next few decades. The natural limits to growth that we are approaching are going to affect us. Those limits were already impacting businesses that deal with energy and will slowly creep out to impact all of society. But peak oil did not cause human greed to run rampant. And peak oil won't stop human greed from trying to run rampant yet again someday. Remember that.

Link -
http://intothegreyzone.blogspot.com/2011/01/financial-crisis-was-not-caused-by-p...
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What's so difficult here, different issues, at different times, have or may have, different causes!

!929 had different causes to today and so did the early 1970's, the early 1980's and what happened after 9/11.
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perceptions_now
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Re: Global Economic Downturn to Continue?
Reply #101 - Jan 6th, 2011 at 9:39pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Jan 6th, 2011 at 9:34pm:
The Financial Crisis was NOT caused by Peak Oil


Personally, I mark the "public" moment of this financial crisis to July 2007, when two Bear Stearns hedge funds were both completely wiped out. Neither had anything to do with oil or oil trades. Both were highly leveraged funds that were simply in way over their heads. And those funds were symptomatic of the entire financial industry at that time.

The signs of the impending collapse had been building for a while. A few people had been pointing to the "Greenspan bubble" as early as 2005. I freely admit that I missed those calls in the 2004-2005 period but I won't deny that some people did make them. And that was well before oil prices spiked. So the fix was in long before.

The Greenspan bubble (or the last Greenspan bubble) came in response to the dot-com bust which was caused by the prior Greenspan bubble. See a pattern here yet? That prior Greenspan bubble happened during the era of $10 oil. Peak oil didn't burst that bubble either. The bubble popped because all such bubbles pop. And the reason it popped was nothing to do with oil prices and everything to do with herding behaviors as the herd recognized in a very short time frame that they had been sold a bill of goods.

Likewise the current bubble burst as toxic mortgages began failing causing the MBS based on those securities to fail, leading to catastrophic losses, starting with (for example) some of those hedge funds I mentioned. Again, this had nothing to do with peak oil and everything to do with herding behavior, as the holders of MBS began to realize that these securities would never pay back the capital invested in them, let alone the interest promised. None of these people cared about peak oil or were formulating positions based on peak oil. They were simply interested in recouping their capital and hopefully their promised profits, but if not, at least their capital. Instead they suffered massive losses of capital and zero profits because the financial instruments involved were created deliberately as acts of fraud by the banks that created them.

Did Peak Oil cause the Great Depression? Did Peak Oil cause the dot-com bust? Did Peak Oil cause the Tulip mania? Did Peak Oil cause the large recession after the Civil War? If it did not (and it did not, trust me) then why should I believe that "this time it's different"? The onus of proof is on those making the extraordinary claim that Peak Oil caused this recession. Yet I have never seen real proof that this is so. Sure, you can point to some correlations between oil price and financial crisis, but I can point to correlations of oil price and prior financial crisis before oil peaked in North America. Correlation is not causation. To establish causation requires a whole lot more work than just plotting a graph showing correlation and then proclaiming "See!" And that, so far, is all that anyone has done.

Peak oil will place a hard cap on the scope of recovery of the global economy, since the global economy is based on fossil fuels (primarily oil). That hard cap will limit and frustrate all political responses to the financial crisis and in the end, peak oil may be part of the cause of the fall of some governments over the next few decades. The natural limits to growth that we are approaching are going to affect us. Those limits were already impacting businesses that deal with energy and will slowly creep out to impact all of society. But peak oil did not cause human greed to run rampant. And peak oil won't stop human greed from trying to run rampant yet again someday. Remember that.

Link -
http://intothegreyzone.blogspot.com/2011/01/financial-crisis-was-not-caused-by-p...
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What a load of CRAP!

What's so difficult here, different issues, at different times, have or may have, different causes!

1929 had different causes to today and so did the early 1970's, the early 1980's and what happened after 9/11.

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Re: Global Economic Downturn to Continue?
Reply #102 - Jan 6th, 2011 at 10:20pm
 
High Oil Prices Will Lead to an Oil Exploration Boom in 2011


Oil is like any other commodity: if price go up, people will produce more of it to sell. Despite the bleatings of peak oil sheep, oil companies are responding to recently elevated oil prices. Many are in fact scrambling to find and produce more oil.

From giants Saudi Aramco and Exxon Mobil Corp. to five-person wildcat outfits, the industry plans to spend nearly a half-trillion dollars next year to find and extract oil and natural gas, according to a new survey by investment bank Barclays Capital.

For the first time in several years, large Western oil companies are leading the industry's charge, increasing their budgets faster than the state-run national oil companies that have dominated spending in recent years.

"This is being driven by the appetite to find more oil, comfort that today's oil prices will be sustained and companies getting out of a hunker-down, recession mode," said James West, an energy analyst with Barclays, who co-authored the survey, which has been produced every year since 1982. _Rigzone

The key question oil executives as themselves is, "Will the high prices of oil stay high?" During the speculative runup in oil prices from 2007-2008, it was clear to most wise analysts that the high prices could not last. And indeed oil prices crashed to relatively low levels in 2009.

Oil has always been a boom and bust industry, with multiple price elevations followed inevitably by price crashes, and so on. That is one reason for the formation of OPEC -- the perceived need to maintain a stable price level for oil.

More on the investing side from Phil McPherson:

With the economy recovering, and as more people feel that the double-dip recession is not going to happen, oil prices are tending to stay stronger. However, it seems to me the tail is wagging the dog right now, with the U.S. dollar going down and the price of bonds being up, and the yield being extremely low. To me, it has more to do with the price of oil than necessarily the pure supply and demand fundamentals, because we still have excess supply of oil via OPEC. If you're bullish on oil or bullish on the economy, then you use those dips as opportunities to gain more exposure.

...But as with any business, when the demand is there and the visibility is there, entrepreneurs rise up to the challenge because they know they can make money. I think you're going to be surprised that in 2011 the likes of Halliburton Co. (NYSE:HAL) and Schlumberger Ltd. (NYSE:SLB), as well as lot of other smaller companies, are going to have more crews out working. There's going to be enough demand there. It's all a function of oil prices, and as long as they are in this relative range, people are going to continue to drill these wells. I don't think margin makes as much of an impact as the NAV that you can grow with these companies via drilling these wells and growing reserves. _IBTimes

The world is floating in hydrocarbons. North American shale gas has barely gotten started, and the technology for repeating that miracle is in high demand worldwide -- from Israel to China to South America.

As long as current oil prices remain above $70 (2010 dollars), exploration and production will continue to accelerate for both oil and wet gas. Higher prices -- above US $80, will spur even greater investment and faster development.

The next time someone tells you there is no flexibility in oil production, and that demand for hydrocarbons absolutely must continue to rise exponentially, you would be wise to bid the person a good day, and seek other companionship.

Link -
http://oilprice.com/Energy/Oil-Prices/High-Oil-Prices-Will-Lead-to-an-Oil-Exploration-Boom-in-2011.html
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What a load of CRAP!

As can be seen from the following chart, the Oil Price had been on the rise since 2002, before Peaking in 2008, diving to a low in early 2009 and it has since been surging upward again.

During all that time, with the massive Pricing incentive, what did Production do?

It hovered around, within a fairly narrow band, it did not keep up with Population or Demand increases and it certainly did nothing in response to the massive Pricing increases since 2002!  

Why has production not given the "Capitalist Response"?

Because most of the older established fields are Peaking and going into permanent decline and the newer, smaller fields coming on-stream are not of sufficient size to offset the depleting older fields.

So Production has now Plateaued, ahead of the inescapable, permanent post Peak downhill slid, of the Hubbert bell curve!

The next time someone tells you, "The world is floating in hydrocarbons", you would be wise to bid the person a good day!


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Re: Global Economic Downturn to Continue?
Reply #103 - Jan 7th, 2011 at 7:49am
 
Although I've got no doubt that more expensive techniques employed to extract oil will satisfy demands, albeit with a higher pump price, for some years to come, it shows that we're now starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel.

At least this might also provide incentive to further develop renewables.
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Re: Global Economic Downturn to Continue?
Reply #104 - Jan 7th, 2011 at 2:15pm
 
The Keiser Report




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Some good points, well made!

What came (be-came Bankrupt) first ?

The Chicken (The US Federal Government)

The Egg (The FED)

And the answer is, Neither, because they both guarantee each other?

At least, that is A theory!

A theory that says, there are no consequences, for printing as much money as you want or taking on as much Debt as you want, so long as you are the main game in town.

I do not suscribe, to that point of view!
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