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Double Jeopardy under threat (Read 13606 times)
BigOl64
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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #60 - Oct 25th, 2010 at 3:54am
 
Aussie wrote on Oct 24th, 2010 at 6:40pm:
Quote:
The US is prosecuting him for conspiracy not manslaughter


I'm not sure that is right, but assuming it is......

With whom did he conspire?

Cheesy



I don't friggen know, may bee you should do some basic research on the matter instead of posting emoticons.

You seem to think that trying to humiliate the messager serves to bolster your own argument.  This may work in the school yard of your mind, but not so much in the real world.

But I very much doubt the US prosecuters will lay out their entire case for you to pick over before it actually commences, so you might have to show some level of maturaty and wait.

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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #61 - Oct 25th, 2010 at 4:27pm
 
Quote:
I don't friggen know, may bee you should do some basic research on the matter instead of posting emoticons.


Hey, it was not me who said the US were charging him with conspiracy.....that was you.  Here, in Queensland, if you are charged with conspiracy, there will be another with whom you will be alleged to have conspired. 

Oh, and just for you...............

Cool
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longweekend58
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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #62 - Oct 25th, 2010 at 7:35pm
 
It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Oct 24th, 2010 at 9:39am:
As a Diver
( and this discussion heated up on DiveOz Forum too)
I can only HOPE that the USA gets their hands on him and submit him to the DEATH PENALTY !!!
Personally I wish we could cement his feet and drop him underwater amidst a school of Oceanic White-Tips (Sailor's Sharks) with but a tank of air for just 15 minutes to feel the pain.

Australia is a Kangaroo Court when it comes to people "Murdering" others.
A man can kill another and claim "mental" problems and get off.
What a croc this country has become.
I think a lot of EVIL people exploit the cultural history of Australia's CONVICT past in regards to BAD people who stole bread.



since when do people 'get off' because of mental problems? for starters, the range of mental illnesses that apply are very small and very difficult to prove. and you dont go free. you get detained in a hospital with no rights to leave. It is little different to prison except that you dont get to leave - ever.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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longweekend58
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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #63 - Oct 25th, 2010 at 7:37pm
 
Verge wrote on Oct 24th, 2010 at 4:45pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Oct 24th, 2010 at 2:36pm:
adelcrow wrote on Oct 24th, 2010 at 8:56am:
He is an American citizen who was in some way responsible for the death of another American citizen abroad, the yanks can do what they like with him once he gets back there.
America is a strong democracy, if the people there have any sympathy for this dog they can protest in the streets and change the laws.
As for myself...I do not know the full details of the case but one thing is for certain, he abandoned his wife to her death and if I was her father I would want a trial once he got back to the USA.


I thought you for one might try a principle-based approach but you have sunk to the circumstance-approach. why is 'principle' so difficult?


Principles go out the window when the penality doesnt fit the crime.  Principles would have seen someone do more than 18 months for the taking of a life.


Clearly you have NO IDEA what a 'principle' is. 'principles' are the standards you apply regardless of the circumstances even when they are diamettically to how you wished things turned out. Your 'principles' are nothing more than 'conveniences'.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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longweekend58
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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #64 - Oct 25th, 2010 at 7:41pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Oct 25th, 2010 at 3:54am:
Aussie wrote on Oct 24th, 2010 at 6:40pm:
Quote:
The US is prosecuting him for conspiracy not manslaughter


I'm not sure that is right, but assuming it is......

With whom did he conspire?

Cheesy



I don't friggen know, may bee you should do some basic research on the matter instead of posting emoticons.

You seem to think that trying to humiliate the messager serves to bolster your own argument.  This may work in the school yard of your mind, but not so much in the real world.

But I very much doubt the US prosecuters will lay out their entire case for you to pick over before it actually commences, so you might have to show some level of maturaty and wait.



I could always hope that you actually have an opinion on DOUBLE JEOPARDY and not just this case. Is that possible?
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Life_goes_on
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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #65 - Oct 25th, 2010 at 7:56pm
 
Quote:
since when do people 'get off' because of mental problems?


The amount of people who think the insanity plea is used by a large proportion of defendants, that it's usually successful and that it results in the person walking free is amazing.

It's just one of the many misconceptions you find on forums and messageboards here in Australia.

A few of the commonly found misconceptions are:

* For serious crimes, people serve less jail time than what they used to.
* The remissions system ("Time off for good behavior") is still used in Australia.
* In the good old days, life used to mean life.
* A true life sentence can't be given these days.
* Parole is automatically granted on the first attempt.

There's heaps more...
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« Last Edit: Oct 25th, 2010 at 8:47pm by Life_goes_on »  

"You're just one lucky motherf-cker" - Someone, 5th February 2013

Num num num num.
 
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longweekend58
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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #66 - Oct 25th, 2010 at 8:27pm
 
Life_goes_on wrote on Oct 25th, 2010 at 7:56pm:
Quote:
since when do people 'get off' because of mental problems?


The amount of people who think the insanity plea is used by a large proportion of defendants, that it's usually successful and that it results in the person walking free is amazing.

It's just one of the many misconceptions you find on forums and messageboards here in Australia.

* For serious crimes, people serve less jail time than what they used to.
* The remissions system ("Time off for good behavior") is still used in Australia.
* In the good old days, life used to mean life.
* A true life sentence can't be given these days.
* Parole is automatically granted on the first attempt.

There's heaps more...


you made more than a few errors there.

Parole is NOT automatic.
A true life sentence CAN be given
The remissions system has been scaled back and how you can think having a system that rewards good behaviour in a prison is BAD is beyond me.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #67 - Oct 25th, 2010 at 8:34pm
 

This bizarre case reminds me of another one - where a guy managed to kill two brides before he got caught...

The Forensic Psychiatrist's opinion was fascinating albeit disturbing...

http://cpcabrisbane.org/Kasama/1999/V13n4/Keir.htm

Quote:
Thomas Keir convicted at last

Australia’s justice system has finally caught up with Thomas Andrew Keir. On September 17, 1999 he was found guilty of murdering his first wife, Jean Angela Keir (nee Strachan), a Filipina, in February 1988, ten years before his arrest.

During the six-week trial in Sydney’s Supreme Court, the jury, comprised of nine men and three women, heard evidence of Keir’s irrational jealousy, his overpowering possessive controlling nature and Jean’s fear of his brutal dominance, death threats, and manipulation of their child. Forensic evidence of DNA testing revealed that the human bone fragments found in 1991 buried in the backyard of Keir’s home, were from Jean’s body.

Thomas Keir has maintained his innocence throughout. He says Jean ran off with a lover. He also claimed they spoke on the phone several times since she disappeared and her belongings were taken from the house while he was away. The jury however accepted the prosecution’s case that when moving her body years after he killed Jean, Keir had overlooked the tiny bones. They came to this conclusion unenlightened of the fact that Keir had once before been tried for murder.

The victim in that case was his second wife, Rosalina Canonizado Keir. In April 1991, after 18 months of marriage, Rosalina was found in their burned-out home strangled with a lamp cord and set alight. Rosalina, also a Filipina, was a distant relative to Jean. Keir pleaded not guilty and was acquitted of Rosalina’s murder due to lack of evidence. But, it was during his time in jail awaiting trial for Rosalina’s murder that he revealed to another inmate where he’d buried the body of his first wife, Jean. Later, acting on this information, police found the bone fragments.

Thomas Keir’s sentence for the murder of his first wife, Jean, is still to be determined. On December 10, 1999 his case was heard for sentencing but the trial judge reserved his decision until February 2000 — possibly in the second week — no precise date has been set as we go to press.

In court on December 10, the day was taken up with submissions from both the prosecution and the defence on sentencing.

The defence called forensic scientist, Dr Bruce Westmore who testified that Keir had no mental illness, no anti-social personality disorder or depression — but rather, he had a personality which included extreme jealousy bordering on the pathological. He also testified that Thomas Keir was likely to be dangerous in other intimate relationships and that because he had failed to acknowledge what he had done, Keir was a poor prospect for rehabilitation.

He also testified that Keir had previously received psychiatric treatment due to stress at the time he had been charged with killing Rosalina. So despite Keir’s acquittal for killing Rosalina, her death was very much acknowledged and discussed in court.

In discussions about how dangerous Keir might be and what might be an appropriate sentence, the judge spoke about how such offences, which were committed by apparently otherwise normal men within relationships, were very serious because they breached the trust of the relationship and because they reflected a view that such men had an entitlement over their wives, or ownership of them, and this was morally objectionable.

Jean’s mother, Christine Strachan, told the press, "We are not looking for revenge but justice. Justice for Jean and for her son who has lost a beautiful and loving mother — and for her sisters and brother who loved her very much — and for my husband and myself. We shall never get over this loss for as long as we live."



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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #68 - Oct 25th, 2010 at 8:36pm
 

http://cpcabrisbane.org/Kasama/2002/V16n1/Keir.htm

Quote:
Appeal Court grants Thomas Keir retrial

On 29 February 2000, Thomas Andrew Keir received a sentence of 24 years imprisonment, with a non-parole period of 18 years, for the murder of his first wife Jean Strachan Keir in 1988. But now, almost two years later, the NSW Court of Criminal Appeal quashed the conviction and ordered a retrial which is scheduled for July 2002.

Justices Roger Giles, Greg James and Peter McClellan ruled that Supreme Court Justice Michael Adams mis-directed the jury over the DNA evidence in Keir's trial.

In his judgement on sentence, Justice Adams said that Keir’s "arrogant, controlling behaviour in respect of his wife, demonstrated from time to time by his manhandling of her, his concealment of her contraceptive pills and his threats of murder, showed that he considered her as his property to be dealt with as he thought it right".

At Keir’s trial, evidence was given by a forensic biologist that DNA analysis of bone fragments found outside Keir’s residence showed that, "it is approximately 660,000 times more likely to obtain this particular DNA profile found in the bones if it comes from a child of [the biological parents of Jean Strachan Keir] than from a child of a random mating in the Australian population."

However, the trial judge instructed the jury that there was, "a 660,000 chance to one that these bones were not those of Jean Keir."

"Those are two very different things in statistical terms," senior counsel for Keir, Paul Byrne, told the appeal hearing. And, because the judge had invited the jury to view the DNA evidence as discrediting a key defence witness who claimed to have seen Jean eight months after her alleged murder, Keir was effectively deprived "of a chance that the jury might have looked at the sighting evidence as grounds to acquit," he said.

Michael Sexton, the NSW Solicitor-General, conceded the DNA evidence had been wrongly presented, but argued the Crown case was overwhelming when all evidence was taken into account.

Jean’s mother, Christine Strachan, was in court. After the appeal hearing she told the press, "Now, 14 years after she disappeared, we have to go through the whole thing again. I cried buckets during that trial ... all that heartache. I'm so disappointed, I cannot believe it."

Another mother is also grieving over the loss of her daughter. Ester is the mother of Rosalina Canonizado who was Keir’s second wife. In April 1991 Rosalina was found strangled in her bedroom, her body set alight. Keir was tried for her murder, but acquitted. Both Filipinas, Jean and Rosalina quite coincidentally were second cousins.

— with a report from the Sydney Morning Herald, 22 Feb 2002.

Quote:
STOP PRESS: The retrial of Thomas Andrew Keir commenced in the Supreme Court of New South Wales on 5 August, 2002. A jury of 8 men and four women found Keir guilty of the murder of his first wife, Jean Angela Strachan Keir. Justice Kirby on 21 March, 2003, sentenced Keir to 22 years imprisonment with a non-parole period of 16 years. Keir will therefore be eligible for release on parole on 20 February, 2014, two years earlier than the original sentence.

There are related articles in these issues of "Kasama":

    * In Memory of Rosalina Canonizado, V15n2, April/June 2001;
    * In Remembrance – Memorial Mass & Rosalina’s family seeks justice, V14n2, April/June 2000;
    * Justice for Jean, V14n1, Jan/March 2000;
    * Forum Tackles Violence Against Filipinas in Australia, V14n1, Jan/March 2000;
    * Thomas Keir Convicted At Last, V13n4, Oct/Dec 1999.


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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #69 - Oct 25th, 2010 at 8:46pm
 
Quote:
you made more than a few errors there.


I should have had made it clearer, those were the commonly found misconceptions.
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longweekend58
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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #70 - Oct 26th, 2010 at 6:19am
 
Life_goes_on wrote on Oct 25th, 2010 at 8:46pm:
Quote:
you made more than a few errors there.


I should have had made it clearer, those were the commonly found misconceptions.


yeah sorry about that. posts sometimes arent clear about what is intended. Irony amd sarcasm particualrly translate rather poorly. But I agree with you that most people's understanding of the law is very very poor and limited to what they glean from american TV shows.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #71 - Nov 11th, 2010 at 3:39pm
 

Update on this case: -

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/honeymoon-killer-in-immigration-li...

Quote:
'Honeymoon killer' in immigration limbo

November 11, 2010 - 10:04AM

AAP

US prosecutors say they have "no idea" how long it will be before Australian authorities receive written assurances honeymoon killer Gabe Watson will not face the death penalty if he's tried in America over the death of his wife Tina.

Watson is in limbo after being released from a Queensland jail on Thursday morning and handed over to immigration officials, as the Australian government awaits a formal assurance from the US federal authorities he won't face the death penalty if convicted in his home state of Alabama.

Authorities in Alabama want to try the 33-year-old former bubblewrap salesman for murder and kidnapping over the honeymoon drowning death of his new bride during a scuba dive off Townsville in 2003.

He completed an 18-month prison term on Thursday for her manslaughter.

Alabama Attorney-General Troy King has promised Watson will not face the death penalty, but the Australian government is now seeking a similar assurance from US Attorney-General Eric Holder.

Watson's Australian solicitor Adrian Braithwaite said he's been told that could take weeks or months.

Alabama's top prosecutor Don Valeska said Australian officials would not accept his personal assurances that his state would seek a maximum sentence of life imprisonment without parole if Watson was convicted.

"We have no idea as to the timespan," Mr Valeska told the Seven network on Thursday.

Asked if written assurance would be provided that Alabama authorities would not seek the death penalty, he added: "Yes, I would hope so".

"I heard (Immigration Department spokesman) Sandy Logan say that.

"Of course, he is going to have to contact the (federal) Justice and State Departments in Washington.

"I could have sent him written proof, but he wants it from them. I can't answer for them or for him so, hopefully, he will get it and we can move on.

"Any prosecutor is interested in the maximum punishment for a crime if it is put to a grand jury. Life without parole."


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