Australian Politics Forum - Double Jeopardy under threat

philperth2010

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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #45 - Oct 24^th, 2010 at 10:21am

longweekend58 wrote on Oct 24^th, 2010 at 7:44am:

Quote:

I understand your concerns but the law does not consider morality when it is applied.....it only considers the legal argument which allows the for charges to be laid if this man ever returns to America.....right or wrong this is the way it is!!!

If he is ever deported (and there is a very good chance he wont be) the defence will also argue double jeopardy. The USA has a strong DJ principle ingrained in its legal system and his lawyers will argue that despite there being no international treaty on DJ that is no excuse for breaching a long-held principle in domestic law. 10 years ago that argument would be 100% effective. However since gitmo the US has happily gone down the road of using weak international law to its advantage. Gitmo is not covered by US human rights and constitutional protections. not that long ago that would have not mattered - the PRINCIPLE if human rights would have covered the legal loophole. but not now.

If you support watsons retrial in USA then you support legal loopholes. if you support legal loopholes then you support gitmo.

but if you were a man of principle you would support neither.

I actually agree with you Longy.....although I have doubts about this blokes guilt no one should have to be punished twice for the same crime.....any time America tramples on international justice they weaken the foundations of there own justice system.....look at the patriot act.....it is the most unpatriotic policy ever enacted.....America has shown they do not care about anyone but themselves and will even trample over there own constitution to control there citizens....remember Australia supported G.W.Bush and the actions at Guantanamo bay despite the obvious fact it was against the principles of justice and democracy.....John Howard and his government have nothing to be proud of!!!

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It_is_the_Darkness

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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #46 - Oct 24^th, 2010 at 10:31am

Seems Australian Courts are only able to process "PETTY" crime in regards to the Colonial Convict Past.
Any SERIOUS Murderer or Criminal should be passed onto the USA Justice system for some serious PUNISHMENT!

Too many serious crimes are going unpunished in Australia,
if we can't deal with it,
then I'm more than happy for the USA to take care of it.
Angry

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longweekend58

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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #47 - Oct 24^th, 2010 at 2:36pm

adelcrow wrote on Oct 24^th, 2010 at 8:56am:

He is an American citizen who was in some way responsible for the death of another American citizen abroad, the yanks can do what they like with him once he gets back there.
America is a strong democracy, if the people there have any sympathy for this dog they can protest in the streets and change the laws.
As for myself...I do not know the full details of the case but one thing is for certain, he abandoned his wife to her death and if I was her father I would want a trial once he got back to the USA.

I thought you for one might try a principle-based approach but you have sunk to the circumstance-approach. why is 'principle' so difficult?

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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aussiefree2ride Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3538	Re: Double Jeopardy under threat Reply #48 - Oct 24^th, 2010 at 2:39pm Ahhhhhhhhh, the hysteria of the lynch mob eh?
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Life_goes_on Gold Member Offline Posts: 4772 400kms south of Yobsville, Qld Gender:	Re: Double Jeopardy under threat Reply #49 - Oct 24^th, 2010 at 3:06pm I don't care what the guy did or what his sentence was. To re-arrest anyone who has already been tried and then put them on trial for the same offense again is just plain wrong.
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longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: Double Jeopardy under threat Reply #50 - Oct 24^th, 2010 at 3:33pm Life_goes_on wrote on Oct 24^th, 2010 at 3:06pm: I don't care what the guy did or what his sentence was. To re-arrest anyone who has already been tried and then put them on trial for the same offense again is just plain wrong. very true. why shoudl you go to jail twice for the same crime?
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Verge

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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #51 - Oct 24^th, 2010 at 4:45pm

longweekend58 wrote on Oct 24^th, 2010 at 2:36pm:

adelcrow wrote on Oct 24^th, 2010 at 8:56am:

He is an American citizen who was in some way responsible for the death of another American citizen abroad, the yanks can do what they like with him once he gets back there.
America is a strong democracy, if the people there have any sympathy for this dog they can protest in the streets and change the laws.
As for myself...I do not know the full details of the case but one thing is for certain, he abandoned his wife to her death and if I was her father I would want a trial once he got back to the USA.

I thought you for one might try a principle-based approach but you have sunk to the circumstance-approach. why is 'principle' so difficult?

Principles go out the window when the penality doesnt fit the crime. Principles would have seen someone do more than 18 months for the taking of a life.

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Life_goes_on

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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #52 - Oct 24^th, 2010 at 4:57pm

Quote:

Principles go out the window when the penality doesnt fit the crime. Principles would have seen someone do more than 18 months for the taking of a life.

The average time served for manslaughter is around 5 years (around 17 for murder). Some serve less, some serve more, a few serve no time at all.

Unless you've read the transcript of the sentencing you're doing nothing but guessing.

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philperth2010

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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #53 - Oct 24^th, 2010 at 4:57pm

Verge wrote on Oct 24^th, 2010 at 4:45pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Oct 24^th, 2010 at 2:36pm:

adelcrow wrote on Oct 24^th, 2010 at 8:56am:

He is an American citizen who was in some way responsible for the death of another American citizen abroad, the yanks can do what they like with him once he gets back there.
America is a strong democracy, if the people there have any sympathy for this dog they can protest in the streets and change the laws.
As for myself...I do not know the full details of the case but one thing is for certain, he abandoned his wife to her death and if I was her father I would want a trial once he got back to the USA.

I thought you for one might try a principle-based approach but you have sunk to the circumstance-approach. why is 'principle' so difficult?

Principles go out the window when the penality doesnt fit the crime. Principles would have seen someone do more than 18 months for the taking of a life.

I don’t know Verge.....if it was an accident and the accused was truly remorseful I do not see what destroying there life would do...it is not like they can become serial manslaughters is it.....the person who committed the manslaughter would have to carry the heavy burden of there actions for the rest of there life even if it was an accident....no price can be placed on human life.....including that of the accused!!!

Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes.
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Deborahmac09 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1619	Re: Double Jeopardy under threat Reply #54 - Oct 24^th, 2010 at 5:24pm Gizmo, if this is the case I think it is, and it is. http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/25326275#slice-2
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BigOl64

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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #55 - Oct 24^th, 2010 at 6:04pm

longweekend58 wrote on Oct 24^th, 2010 at 7:36am:

BigOl64 wrote on Oct 24^th, 2010 at 5:40am:

longweekend58 wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2010 at 11:47am:

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8111395

no matter what the issues of the case, the notion of having to face ANOTHER trial after being arrested, tried convicted and jailed for the offence already is a disgrace. The issue of double jeopardy should be a concern for all of us. It would be bad enough to be retried for an offence you were found innocent of nevermind being retried for one you had served a sentence already for.

Americans... supporters of the rule of law, but only when it is their law on their turf and with their rules. and they wonder why we despise their hypocrisy...

Australia should refuse to deport him.

Longy

He is being tried in the states for conspiracy and murder, because the conspiracy occured inthe states not in Aus. He was tried and convicted for manslaughter for which he got 18 months. That'll teach him that killing is frowned upon in this country, prolly why he did it here and not at home.

QLD DPP refused to release any evidence to the US because they were going to impose the DP, friggen pussies. Angry

BTW, QLD was looking to remove double jeopardy only a few years ago, where defendants lied on the stand and it resulted in a not guilty finding; look up raymond carroll another filthy scumbag walking the streets.

Personally if Australia's legal system wasn't so pro-criminal, particuarly this case, the US would not have to retry a scumbag killer to seek justice for the victim and her family.

Our legal system makes us look weak on crime and totally pathetic in the eyes of the rest of the world. Just ask any victim of a serious crime if they were happy with the short sentence handed to the crim who committed the offence.

We should be ashamed to have another country retry and reconvict a scumbag we should have dealt with properly in the first place.

well that was post full of assumotions, errors and laughable nonsense. it is presumptive that the conspiracy (if indeed there was one) occured in the USA and most certainly the murder did no (if there actually was one).

out legal system a joke? well since our crime rate is but a small portion of the american rate it is perhaps THEIR system that is a joke.

but yet again there is stil NO ONE willing to discuss the PRINCIPLE of double jeopardy. is everyone that small minded that they cannot rise above circumstance and engage principle?

double jeopardy isnt wrong because it might occasionally protect the guilty. instead it is RIGHT because it defends the innocent. you might one day find yourself in court facing a charge of which you are innocent. and when you are found not guilty you will be very glad of DJ so that the morons who charged you in the first place cannot do so again.

The rest of us wil be happy about DJ because it puts a greater responsibility on police and prosecutors to get it right the first time eg actually compiling evidence instead of hearsay and opinion. if you can get as many goes at it as you want why would police and prosecutors put much effort into a trial first time around? why would police bother about compelling evidence when they can just through it at a court and hope for the best and if it doesnt work then they can try harder next time?

DJ is a deeply ingrained principle of justice that has an enormous value.

I await the well-reasoned argument on principle. I however wont be holding my breath.

Since the manslaughter occured and was well reported in my home town, I fairly sure I read the stories correctly.

The US is prosecuting him for conspiracy not manslaughter, so there is no DJ attached and if there is any, then his defence can argue that.

Im just telling you what has been reported but continue to attack me if it makes you feel smarter or feel better.

If you want a personal opinion here goes, Australia is as weak as piss when it comes to justice for victims and Im glad he is being tried in the states, where he will get what he deserves. They wouldn't have to try him for conspiracy if our DPP did their jobs competently and our judges weren't so pro-criminal.

BTW did read my other statement about QLD (labor) government attempting to suspend DJ in some cases? It isn't that ingrained, we have no absolute right to to anything in this country, remember.

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Life_goes_on

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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #56 - Oct 24^th, 2010 at 6:12pm

Quote:

and Im glad he is being tried in the states, where he will get what he deserves

Time served for serious crimes isn't that much different between the US, the UK and here.

While they may be sentenced to apparently a much longer time in jail in the US, they only expect to serve half of that sentence (Federal offenses like kidnap and tampering with the mail being exceptions). Their non-parole periods aren't binding like here.

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 39828 Gender:	Re: Double Jeopardy under threat Reply #57 - Oct 24^th, 2010 at 6:40pm Quote: The US is prosecuting him for conspiracy not manslaughter I'm not sure that is right, but assuming it is...... With whom did he conspire?
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Life_goes_on Gold Member Offline Posts: 4772 400kms south of Yobsville, Qld Gender:	Re: Double Jeopardy under threat Reply #58 - Oct 24^th, 2010 at 6:44pm Quote: With whom did he conspire? Himself? It's a "thought crime".
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It_is_the_Darkness

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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #59 - Oct 24^th, 2010 at 11:37pm

Actually,
how better to murder someone than to do it overseas Wink

Australia is still culturally fixated with the old Convict 'emotional' sympathy of poor English/Irish stealing bread and other petty crimes.
BUT!
what we are seeing is an exploitation of this pride in being compassionate to the petty criminal, by serious and I mean SERIOUS Criminals who murder, rape, torture, etc
Even the ideal of this being the Lucky Country is lost on those who break into houses and steal from others and then sue if they get clobbered with a baseball bat. Its not as if there is dire poverty due to ones own self-destructive habits, in this country - where there is always work. True?

I hope he gets the Death Penalty and as for Double Jepardy? Well people get sentenced in this country for murder, then they appeal and then they get a lessened sentence or even parole straight up - if not off entirely! So where's the double-standard with the USA following up a Kangaroo Court?

Sydney is now rife with guns and violent murders left right and centre and most just claim "Mental" problems and get off scott free after shooting someone innocent. If the Law can't deal with the violence, then let the "National Guard" (we do have one, don't we? Huh

) or Army gun down any stoopid idiot who thinks he is tough enough to pull a trigger too. Too many INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING.
Angry

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