Australian Politics Forum - Double Jeopardy under threat

Verge Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6329 Gender:	Re: Double Jeopardy under threat Reply #30 - Oct 23^rd, 2010 at 9:17pm Since when is 18 months justice for manslaughter? What a joke.
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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 39812 Gender:	Re: Double Jeopardy under threat Reply #31 - Oct 23^rd, 2010 at 9:30pm Verge wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2010 at 9:17pm: Since when is 18 months justice for manslaughter? What a joke. Go and argue that on some other Thread.
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Verge Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6329 Gender:	Re: Double Jeopardy under threat Reply #32 - Oct 23^rd, 2010 at 9:33pm Aussie wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2010 at 9:30pm: Verge wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2010 at 9:17pm: Since when is 18 months justice for manslaughter? What a joke. Go and argue that on some other Thread. Ever stop and think it goes to the heart of the thread?
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longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: Double Jeopardy under threat Reply #33 - Oct 23^rd, 2010 at 11:10pm philperth2010 wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2010 at 5:07pm: If people cannot be retried how can they ever clear there name....retrials happen all the time when there is enough evidence to warrant another trial??? retrials ONLY happened when a conviction is squashed. acquittals are NOT squashed.
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longweekend58

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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #34 - Oct 23^rd, 2010 at 11:15pm

Verge wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2010 at 9:33pm:

Aussie wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2010 at 9:30pm:

Verge wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2010 at 9:17pm:

Since when is 18 months justice for manslaughter? What a joke.

Go and argue that on some other Thread.

Ever stop and think it goes to the heart of the thread?

No, it actually misses the heart of the thread altogether, just as it does for virtually everybody. It seems as if circumstance clouds the judgement of not just a few or even the many but rather the vast majority. Does NOBODY see the PRINCIPLE involved or do you see only the circumstances you do not like (despite little to no verified information) and cast your principles away because they dont line up with one incident? Maybe the thread should be about what PRINCIPLES are. then we can REALLY have a debate about something very few know anything about.

trying to get a debate on a matter of principle in here is nigh on impossible. The reasons are disturbing. You all either have none or lack the intelligence and character to stand up for them. I am certainly glad none of you are in any position to affect society. then we'd REALLY be in trouble.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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philperth2010

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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #35 - Oct 23^rd, 2010 at 11:22pm

longweekend58 wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2010 at 11:10pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2010 at 5:07pm:

If people cannot be retried how can they ever clear there name....retrials happen all the time when there is enough evidence to warrant another trial???

retrials ONLY happened when a conviction is squashed. acquittals are NOT squashed.

I have never disputed this Longy......my point is when someone is acquitted they cannot be retried for the same crime....however the double jeopardy law does not apply to different jurisdictions or countries!!!

I understand your concerns but the law does not consider morality when it is applied.....it only considers the legal argument which allows the for charges to be laid if this man ever returns to America.....right or wrong this is the way it is!!!

Let me not be understood as saying that there are no bad laws, nor that grievances may not arise for the redress of which no legal provisions have been made. I mean to say no such thing. But I do mean to say that although bad laws, if they exist, should be repealed as soon as possible, still, while they continue in force, for the sake of example they should be religiously observed.
Abraham Lincoln (1809 - 1865)

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BigOl64

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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #36 - Oct 24^th, 2010 at 5:40am

longweekend58 wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2010 at 11:47am:

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8111395

no matter what the issues of the case, the notion of having to face ANOTHER trial after being arrested, tried convicted and jailed for the offence already is a disgrace. The issue of double jeopardy should be a concern for all of us. It would be bad enough to be retried for an offence you were found innocent of nevermind being retried for one you had served a sentence already for.

Americans... supporters of the rule of law, but only when it is their law on their turf and with their rules. and they wonder why we despise their hypocrisy...

Australia should refuse to deport him.

Longy

He is being tried in the states for conspiracy and murder, because the conspiracy occured inthe states not in Aus. He was tried and convicted for manslaughter for which he got 18 months. That'll teach him that killing is frowned upon in this country, prolly why he did it here and not at home.

QLD DPP refused to release any evidence to the US because they were going to impose the DP, friggen pussies. Angry

BTW, QLD was looking to remove double jeopardy only a few years ago, where defendants lied on the stand and it resulted in a not guilty finding; look up raymond carroll another filthy scumbag walking the streets.

Personally if Australia's legal system wasn't so pro-criminal, particuarly this case, the US would not have to retry a scumbag killer to seek justice for the victim and her family.

Our legal system makes us look weak on crime and totally pathetic in the eyes of the rest of the world. Just ask any victim of a serious crime if they were happy with the short sentence handed to the crim who committed the offence.

We should be ashamed to have another country retry and reconvict a scumbag we should have dealt with properly in the first place.

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codswal

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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #37 - Oct 24^th, 2010 at 6:21am

Life_goes_on wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2010 at 1:36pm:

Quote:

Have you seen the 2-part Australian Story: -

Yes I did. But I'm not going to base my opinion of whether or not justice was done on what I saw in a TV documentary.

they did speak to the people that were actually there and thats what makes it different.no he wasnt charged straight away because I am sure no one suspected he would murder his wife on their honeymoon, lets not forget they found nothing wrong with her diving gear. it wasnt untill this youngs mans bizarre behaviour back home that got people thinking even the police officer was on his side at first..if a murder was committed this young woman deserves justice dont you think?..

and if she wasnt then so does he.

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buzzanddidj

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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #38 - Oct 24^th, 2010 at 6:41am

longweekend58 wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2010 at 11:10pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2010 at 5:07pm:

If people cannot be retried how can they ever clear there name....retrials happen all the time when there is enough evidence to warrant another trial???

retrials ONLY happened when a conviction is squashed. acquittals are NOT squashed.

LOL !
But citrus fruit are ....

Did you mean ...

quashed ?
(To overthrow; to annul; to make void or declare invalid)

... or squashed ?
(1.
a. The act or sound of squashing.
b. The fact or condition of being squashed.
2. A crushed or crowded mass: a squash of people.
3. Sports A racket game played in a closed walled court with a rubber ball.
4. Chiefly British A citrus-based soft drink)

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longweekend58

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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #39 - Oct 24^th, 2010 at 7:36am

BigOl64 wrote on Oct 24^th, 2010 at 5:40am:

longweekend58 wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2010 at 11:47am:

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8111395

no matter what the issues of the case, the notion of having to face ANOTHER trial after being arrested, tried convicted and jailed for the offence already is a disgrace. The issue of double jeopardy should be a concern for all of us. It would be bad enough to be retried for an offence you were found innocent of nevermind being retried for one you had served a sentence already for.

Americans... supporters of the rule of law, but only when it is their law on their turf and with their rules. and they wonder why we despise their hypocrisy...

Australia should refuse to deport him.

Longy

He is being tried in the states for conspiracy and murder, because the conspiracy occured inthe states not in Aus. He was tried and convicted for manslaughter for which he got 18 months. That'll teach him that killing is frowned upon in this country, prolly why he did it here and not at home.

QLD DPP refused to release any evidence to the US because they were going to impose the DP, friggen pussies. Angry

BTW, QLD was looking to remove double jeopardy only a few years ago, where defendants lied on the stand and it resulted in a not guilty finding; look up raymond carroll another filthy scumbag walking the streets.

Personally if Australia's legal system wasn't so pro-criminal, particuarly this case, the US would not have to retry a scumbag killer to seek justice for the victim and her family.

Our legal system makes us look weak on crime and totally pathetic in the eyes of the rest of the world. Just ask any victim of a serious crime if they were happy with the short sentence handed to the crim who committed the offence.

We should be ashamed to have another country retry and reconvict a scumbag we should have dealt with properly in the first place.

well that was post full of assumotions, errors and laughable nonsense. it is presumptive that the conspiracy (if indeed there was one) occured in the USA and most certainly the murder did no (if there actually was one).

out legal system a joke? well since our crime rate is but a small portion of the american rate it is perhaps THEIR system that is a joke.

but yet again there is stil NO ONE willing to discuss the PRINCIPLE of double jeopardy. is everyone that small minded that they cannot rise above circumstance and engage principle?

double jeopardy isnt wrong because it might occasionally protect the guilty. instead it is RIGHT because it defends the innocent. you might one day find yourself in court facing a charge of which you are innocent. and when you are found not guilty you will be very glad of DJ so that the morons who charged you in the first place cannot do so again.

The rest of us wil be happy about DJ because it puts a greater responsibility on police and prosecutors to get it right the first time eg actually compiling evidence instead of hearsay and opinion. if you can get as many goes at it as you want why would police and prosecutors put much effort into a trial first time around? why would police bother about compelling evidence when they can just through it at a court and hope for the best and if it doesnt work then they can try harder next time?

DJ is a deeply ingrained principle of justice that has an enormous value.

I await the well-reasoned argument on principle. I however wont be holding my breath.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #40 - Oct 24^th, 2010 at 7:44am

Quote:

I understand your concerns but the law does not consider morality when it is applied.....it only considers the legal argument which allows the for charges to be laid if this man ever returns to America.....right or wrong this is the way it is!!!

If he is ever deported (and there is a very good chance he wont be) the defence will also argue double jeopardy. The USA has a strong DJ principle ingrained in its legal system and his lawyers will argue that despite there being no international treaty on DJ that is no excuse for breaching a long-held principle in domestic law. 10 years ago that argument would be 100% effective. However since gitmo the US has happily gone down the road of using weak international law to its advantage. Gitmo is not covered by US human rights and constitutional protections. not that long ago that would have not mattered - the PRINCIPLE if human rights would have covered the legal loophole. but not now.

If you support watsons retrial in USA then you support legal loopholes. if you support legal loopholes then you support gitmo.

but if you were a man of principle you would support neither.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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codswal

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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #41 - Oct 24^th, 2010 at 8:18am

longy if you believe everything you write.. then you also believe there is no difference between manslaughter and murder.. they really mean the same thing.if he is tried in America it is DJ as you see it.as he has already served his time for the crime.or was the manslaughter charge a false charge as well? and this woman died of natural causes.....as there was nothing wrong with her gear as already proved.

seems to me that her family had a few doubts about this man from the very begining.. to say there was no conspiracy in America is very dubious.. he chose Australia he chose scuba diving.. both things she had no interest in.anyway I await the results if he doesnt get deported we get to keep him I guess.

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adelcrow

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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #42 - Oct 24^th, 2010 at 8:56am

He is an American citizen who was in some way responsible for the death of another American citizen abroad, the yanks can do what they like with him once he gets back there.
America is a strong democracy, if the people there have any sympathy for this dog they can protest in the streets and change the laws.
As for myself...I do not know the full details of the case but one thing is for certain, he abandoned his wife to her death and if I was her father I would want a trial once he got back to the USA.

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Go the Bunnies

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aussiefree2ride

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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #43 - Oct 24^th, 2010 at 9:31am

Equitist wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2010 at 1:29pm:

aussiefree2ride wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2010 at 1:25pm:

Equitist wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2010 at 1:20pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2010 at 1:10pm:

And, after all, the conviction was for, basically, 'failing to render aid'....

The Court found that Watson 'should' have helped his wife to the surface when he realised she was in difficulty...

Which leaves open the question of DID he even notice she was in difficulty before she died???

After viewing the Australian Story, there can be little doubt that he knew she was in difficulty - it's just that he left her down there and appeared to take his time to get to the surface to raise the alarm...

Apparently, his behaviour was creepy-odd and defensive given the circumstances (and not just ordinary 'shock')...

In fact, he seemed to have acted in a pre-meditated manner by setting the stage for an equipment malfunction - purportedly due to putting the battery in the wrong way - one which is not technically possible because the device doesn't malfunction when the battery is around the wrong way: it simply doesn't work at all!

Even with all your "apparentlys, seemed to have acteds, and purportedlys", one thing is clear, you DEFINITELY want to see this bloke hang.

I have very little doubt that he acted in a premeditated and calculating manner - what he did on the day and since is nothing short of creepy!

He has been extremely insensitive - even vicious - in the way he handled her grieving family...

He clearly lacks a normal capacity for empathy: it was as if he had totally dehumanised her at the time - and has even grown to hate her (and her family) since...

And I have no doubt that your conclusions are a total figment of your sexism.

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It_is_the_Darkness

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Re: Double Jeopardy under threat
Reply #44 - Oct 24^th, 2010 at 9:39am

As a Diver
( and this discussion heated up on DiveOz Forum too)
I can only HOPE that the USA gets their hands on him and submit him to the DEATH PENALTY !!!
Personally I wish we could cement his feet and drop him underwater amidst a school of Oceanic White-Tips (Sailor's Sharks) with but a tank of air for just 15 minutes to feel the pain.

Australia is a Kangaroo Court when it comes to people "Murdering" others.
A man can kill another and claim "mental" problems and get off.
What a croc this country has become.
I think a lot of EVIL people exploit the cultural history of Australia's CONVICT past in regards to BAD people who stole bread.

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SUCKING ON MY TITTIES, LIKE I KNOW YOU WANT TO.

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