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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Biofuels Sep 19^th, 2010 at 4:41pm This is a new thread on biofuels. Some typical yields Crop Yield L/ha Algae[n 1] ~3,000 Chinese tallow 907 Palm oil[n 4] 4752 Coconut 2151 Rapeseed 954 Soy (Indiana) 554-922 Peanut 842 Sunflower 767 Hemp 242 Olive Oil is around 2000 litres per hectare, but the crops are highly variable and the establishment time is too long.
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qikvtec

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Re: Biofuels
Reply #1 - Sep 19^th, 2010 at 7:46pm

muso wrote on Sep 19^th, 2010 at 4:41pm:

This is a new thread on biofuels.

Some typical yields
Crop Yield L/ha
Algae[n 1] ~3,000
Chinese tallow 907
Palm oil[n 4] 4752
Coconut 2151
Rapeseed 954
Soy (Indiana) 554-922
Peanut 842
Sunflower 767
Hemp 242

Olive Oil is around 2000 litres per hectare, but the crops are highly variable and the establishment time is too long.

Are you familiar with studies into the Brazilian Diesel Tree? Copaifera langsdorfii

Crop yield of 57ltrs per tree, which admittedly isn't great, but can produce 12000L/Ha from about 200 mature trees, which is not a bad result in my book.

One downside is that the fuel is only good for about 3 months, however there is minuscule processing required.

Probably not ideal in bush fire prone areas

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Politicians and Nappies need to be changed often and for the same reason.

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muso

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Re: Biofuels
Reply #2 - Sep 19^th, 2010 at 9:09pm

qikvtec wrote on Sep 19^th, 2010 at 7:46pm:

Are you familiar with studies into the Brazilian Diesel Tree? Copaifera langsdorfii

Crop yield of 57ltrs per tree, which admittedly isn't great, but can produce 12000L/Ha from about 200 mature trees, which is not a bad result in my book.

One downside is that the fuel is only good for about 3 months, however there is minuscule processing required.

Probably not ideal in bush fire prone areas

Yeah, it's a remarkable plant. However it only grows in tropical rainforest type areas, and it needs a lot of rainfall. Milletia Pinnata produces a similar yield to Copaifera but will grow in subtropical parts of Australia.

UQ have some trial plantations in Caboolture along with Jatropha. I'm not sure what the yield is for Jatropha. Both Jatropha and Milletia Pinnata are nitrogen fixers, so they don't need as much fertiliser.

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qikvtec

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Re: Biofuels
Reply #3 - Sep 19^th, 2010 at 9:15pm

muso wrote on Sep 19^th, 2010 at 9:09pm:

qikvtec wrote on Sep 19^th, 2010 at 7:46pm:

Are you familiar with studies into the Brazilian Diesel Tree? Copaifera langsdorfii

Crop yield of 57ltrs per tree, which admittedly isn't great, but can produce 12000L/Ha from about 200 mature trees, which is not a bad result in my book.

One downside is that the fuel is only good for about 3 months, however there is minuscule processing required.

Probably not ideal in bush fire prone areas

YEah, it's a remarkable plant. However it only grows in tropical rainforest type areas, and it needs a lot of rainfall. Milletia Pinnata produces a similar yield to Copaifera but will grow in subtropical parts of Australia.

If Katter's right, the Nth Qld Banana industry is all but fornicated, plenty of land around up there. I've not heard of the Pinnata prior today, is the oil extracted from the legume?

Edit: Just discovered the source of oil. That's a fair amount of seed.

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« Last Edit: Sep 19^th, 2010 at 9:25pm by qikvtec »

Politicians and Nappies need to be changed often and for the same reason.

One trouble with political jokes is that they often get elected.

Alan Joyce for PM

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muso

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Re: Biofuels
Reply #4 - Sep 20^th, 2010 at 6:08am

qikvtec wrote on Sep 19^th, 2010 at 9:15pm:

Quote:

YEah, it's a remarkable plant. However it only grows in tropical rainforest type areas, and it needs a lot of rainfall. Milletia Pinnata produces a similar yield to Copaifera but will grow in subtropical parts of Australia.

If Katter's right, the Nth Qld Banana industry is all but fornicated, plenty of land around up there. I've not heard of the Pinnata prior today, is the oil extracted from the legume?

Edit: Just discovered the source of oil. That's a fair amount of seed.

Ironically it's a noxious weed up North. I don't think there's much of a problem with the banana industry longterm. Growers will always complain, but fortunes vary according to the growing season.

There was a study once that showed that we could grow enough biofuel for Australia using a land area about half the size of Tasmania. That was based on Palm Oil, grown in an irrigated area similar to Lake Argyll.

There are quite a few alternatives. The Vietnemese are building a plant based on catfish producing 10 million litres per annum:

http://www.mg.co.za/article/2006-07-04-vietnam-to-squeeze-biofuel-from-catfish-r...

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aikmann4

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Re: Biofuels
Reply #5 - Sep 20^th, 2010 at 8:19am

Can they ever be economically viable, Muso? I don't know that much about this but I read somewhere that ethanol requires larger inputs of energy than can actually be extracted from it as an end product. It didn't make any sense at all to me because if it was true, why would it have found a market at all?

That diesel tree thing intrigued me. I wonder what role genetic engineering could have in creating plants that could yield large amounts of energy.

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Amadd Gold Member Offline Mo Posts: 6217	Re: Biofuels Reply #6 - Sep 20^th, 2010 at 2:17pm The catfish, it seems, will yield about 1000 litres per tonne. I wonder how they extract it? The animal rights activists would be none too happy I'm sure.
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muso

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Re: Biofuels
Reply #7 - Sep 20^th, 2010 at 2:34pm

aikmann4 wrote on Sep 20^th, 2010 at 8:19am:

Can they ever be economically viable, Muso? I don't know that much about this but I read somewhere that ethanol requires larger inputs of energy than can actually be extracted from it as an end product. It didn't make any sense at all to me because if it was true, why would it have found a market at all?

That diesel tree thing intrigued me. I wonder what role genetic engineering could have in creating plants that could yield large amounts of energy.

I replied on the ethanol EROI on your financial forum. Essentially ethanol from sweet corn is not a good idea unless they can use the husks. Ethanol from sugar cane is an entirely better prospect. Ethanol from biomass (grassohol) is conceivably even better still.

I have long thought that genetic engineering might play a role in this upcoming crisis yet. The one that nobody is saying much about at this stage (commercial in confidence I guess) is a type of genetically engineered microbe that produces hydrogen. The UQ were conducting research on that back in 2003, but I haven't heard anything for a while.

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muso

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Re: Biofuels
Reply #8 - Sep 20^th, 2010 at 2:42pm

Amadd wrote on Sep 20^th, 2010 at 2:17pm:

The catfish, it seems, will yield about 1000 litres per tonne.
I wonder how they extract it?
The animal rights activists would be none too happy I'm sure.

Why? A lot of fish are killed for human endeavour, whether it's for food or fertiliser. The company that's leading this is called LiveFuels.

http://www.livefuels.com/

Here's the link to the fishy business.
http://www.fastcompany.com/blog/ariel-schwartz/sustainability/livefuels-fish-plu...

Might be a blue 'chip' prospect, do you think? Grin

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aikmann4 Gold Member Offline Posts: 2093 canberra	Re: Biofuels Reply #9 - Sep 20^th, 2010 at 2:47pm Quote: Why? A lot of fish are killed for human endeavour, whether it's for food or fertiliser. But the animal rights activists aren't too happy about these concerns either, so Amadd's statement still stands
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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Biofuels Reply #10 - Sep 22^nd, 2010 at 10:07am aikmann4 wrote on Sep 20^th, 2010 at 2:47pm: Quote: Why? A lot of fish are killed for human endeavour, whether it's for food or fertiliser. But the animal rights activists aren't too happy about these concerns either, so Amadd's statement still stands How much oil could you extract from an animal rights activist?
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aikmann4 Gold Member Offline Posts: 2093 canberra	Re: Biofuels Reply #11 - Sep 22^nd, 2010 at 10:32am Given that they would be vegetarians or vegans, and I am presuming that most oil would be extractable from adipose deposits, probably not much. Statistically vegetarians/vegans are in better shape than meat eaters so you would be better off farming oil from the omnivorous crowd.
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qikvtec

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Re: Biofuels
Reply #12 - Sep 22^nd, 2010 at 10:44pm

muso wrote on Sep 20^th, 2010 at 2:34pm:

aikmann4 wrote on Sep 20^th, 2010 at 8:19am:

Can they ever be economically viable, Muso? I don't know that much about this but I read somewhere that ethanol requires larger inputs of energy than can actually be extracted from it as an end product. It didn't make any sense at all to me because if it was true, why would it have found a market at all?

That diesel tree thing intrigued me. I wonder what role genetic engineering could have in creating plants that could yield large amounts of energy.

I replied on the ethanol EROI on your financial forum. Essentially ethanol from sweet corn is not a good idea unless they can use the husks. Ethanol from sugar cane is an entirely better prospect. Ethanol from biomass (grassohol) is conceivably even better still.

I have long thought that genetic engineering might play a role in this upcoming crisis yet. The one that nobody is saying much about at this stage (commercial in confidence I guess) is a type of genetically engineered microbe that produces hydrogen. The UQ were conducting research on that back in 2003, but I haven't heard anything for a while.

Have you read much about synthetic spider silk?

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Politicians and Nappies need to be changed often and for the same reason.

One trouble with political jokes is that they often get elected.

Alan Joyce for PM

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muso

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Re: Biofuels
Reply #13 - Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 9:54am

aikmann4 wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2010 at 10:32am:

Given that they would be vegetarians or vegans, and I am presuming that most oil would be extractable from adipose deposits, probably not much. Statistically vegetarians/vegans are in better shape than meat eaters so you would be better off farming oil from the omnivorous crowd.

LOL. Well I'm a vego, but only for selfish (as opposed to altruistic) reasons. Maybe we could have trapdoors at MacDonalds or something Grin

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Biofuels Reply #14 - Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 9:55am qikvtec wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2010 at 10:44pm: Have you read much about synthetic spider silk? Not at all, but I just Googled it.
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Paella Senior Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 290	Re: Biofuels Reply #15 - Oct 12^th, 2010 at 6:11pm I'd be interested to know the calorific values of the fuels listed, so as to derive a ratio of joules per hectare.
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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Biofuels Reply #16 - Oct 13^th, 2010 at 8:18am Paella wrote on Oct 12^th, 2010 at 6:11pm: I'd be interested to know the calorific values of the fuels listed, so as to derive a ratio of joules per hectare. Work on a rough value of 35- 39MJ/kg net CV for most FAME biodiesels. It's variable of course. Density about 870kg/m3
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