Australian Politics Forum - Independent threatens to block mining tax

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 51834 At my desk.	Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax Reply #30 - Sep 11^th, 2010 at 4:17pm This isn't about giving up mining.
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longweekend58

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Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax
Reply #31 - Sep 11^th, 2010 at 5:20pm

# wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 11:05am:

longweekend58 tacitly confirmed my post, except:
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 9:28am:

... those opposing the mining tax arent saying they should pay less or NO tax. they are saying that miners are ALREADY paying more taxes than most other companies and it should stay the same. Really, you should be a little more accurate that that!

They lied. According to people I spoke to (and they're in mining), over something more than two decades since the 1980s, the proportion of profits paid as tax went from around 30% to less than 15%. They did discuss how that happened, but I'm no expert so it largely went over my head. I do remember a substantial rise in profitability being mentioned.

A bit awkward then that the ATO and other analysts say teh exact opposite. and after all, its not as tho you actually CAN pay less tax because you just decided to. The company tax rate is 30% and the mining industry has to pay royalties on TOP of that. So it woudl be interesting to see how they can be paying 15%. so basically, you 'friends' are telling you an urban myth.

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longweekend58

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Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax
Reply #32 - Sep 11^th, 2010 at 5:21pm

freediver wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 11:19am:

There is another crucial difference. Mining companies don't actually produce or own what they sell. They just dig it up and move it. So they should only get paid for the value of what they do, not for the value of what is in the ground.

The increased profits have little to do with the value or efficiency of the digging and moving, but the value of the resource.

'just'??

you clearly have little to no idea of what is involved in mining

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 51834 At my desk.	Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax Reply #33 - Sep 11^th, 2010 at 6:10pm I am involved in the mining industry and have been for many years. You can get as detailed as you want, but the economics doesn't change. It is the value of the resource, not the service provided by mining companies that is reflected in the price they get.
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BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax
Reply #34 - Sep 11^th, 2010 at 6:25pm

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 5:21pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 11:19am:

There is another crucial difference. Mining companies don't actually produce or own what they sell. They just dig it up and move it. So they should only get paid for the value of what they do, not for the value of what is in the ground.

The increased profits have little to do with the value or efficiency of the digging and moving, but the value of the resource.

'just'??

you clearly have little to no idea of what is involved in mining

Yeh, it's pointless trying to make people doubt themselves with insubstantial character assasination attempts!

But we suspect you know that! Hope the drugs you get paid are better than listening to yourself talk to uninterested and unimpressed metrosexual crack heads!

Cheesy

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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aussiefree2ride

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Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax
Reply #35 - Sep 11^th, 2010 at 6:31pm

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 6:25pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 5:21pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 11:19am:

There is another crucial difference. Mining companies don't actually produce or own what they sell. They just dig it up and move it. So they should only get paid for the value of what they do, not for the value of what is in the ground.

The increased profits have little to do with the value or efficiency of the digging and moving, but the value of the resource.

'just'??

you clearly have little to no idea of what is involved in mining

Yeh, it's pointless trying to make people doubt themselves with insubstantial character assasination attempts!

But we suspect you know that! Hope the drugs you get paid are better than listening to yourself talk to uninterested and unimpressed metrosexual crack heads!

Cheesy

Okey doke then.

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longweekend58

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Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax
Reply #36 - Sep 12^th, 2010 at 12:09am

freediver wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 6:10pm:

I am involved in the mining industry and have been for many years. You can get as detailed as you want, but the economics doesn't change. It is the value of the resource, not the service provided by mining companies that is reflected in the price they get.

Wrong on every level. like most products, its value is determined by the BUYER - the market. it is not determined by the intrinsic value of the resource not value added by the provider (mining company) but the perceived value to the customer. Business 101. no wonder you are a lefty... no sign of economics anywher in yoru posts!

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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#

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Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax
Reply #37 - Sep 12^th, 2010 at 9:50am

Dnarever wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 11:20am:

BigOl64 wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 11:09am:

Why does anyone who doesn't live in a mining area believe that the mining companies get the stuff for free, the fact is they pay the state government a huge royalties check for every tonne they dig up.

The original Super tax deal included a full rebate of royalties. If they are as huge an amount as you say the companies would have jumped at the offer. For many companies not making over the tax threshold they would have got a full rebate on the royalties and paid no additional tax.

The fact that the miners want to keep paying the royalties instead of paying additional 10% on profits after deductions and exemptions above the 6% profit threshold clearly indicates that the royalty payments are not the burden you infer.

I live in the Hunter Valley, one of Australia's oldest mining areas. I know people in the industry, mostly associated with smaller mining companies. For reasons that have already been canvassed, they favour the Rudd model.

The fact that the major miners choose to pay for mouthpieces like BigOl64, even in this forum, serves to demonstrate their determination to maintain the bludge that they've managed to establish over the decades. We could be flattered by the attention, but it really only shows that they have plenty of money to splash around.

The threshold is set at the long-term bond rate (currently around 6%), so it moves with the market.

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freediver

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Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax
Reply #38 - Sep 12^th, 2010 at 5:50pm

Quote:

Wrong on every level. like most products, its value is determined by the BUYER - the market

You appear to think you are contradicting me, but you aren't. The buyer values the resource that much because the resource has intrinsic value. You are saying the same thing as me, just with different words. Perhaps you need to re-examine the context of the argument. You could tie yourself in mental knots all day trying to figure out whether supply or demand dictates the price, but you would not get any closer to the truth of the matter, nor to the actual topic here, until you stopped.

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longweekend58

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Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax
Reply #39 - Sep 12^th, 2010 at 6:09pm

freediver wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 5:50pm:

Quote:

Wrong on every level. like most products, its value is determined by the BUYER - the market

You appear to think you are contradicting me, but you aren't. The buyer values the resource that much because the resource has intrinsic value. You are saying the same thing as me, just with different words. Perhaps you need to re-examine the context of the argument. You could tie yourself in mental knots all day trying to figure out whether supply or demand dictates the price, but you would not get any closer to the truth of the matter, nor to the actual topic here, until you stopped.

au contraire... you are trying to simply the argument that somehow because miners dig holes in the ground - that are mostly in areas that no one wants or has any other value - that they should be punished for it. Yes, the australian people own the minerals which is why they pay royalties now. or does the term 'royalty' not mean anything?

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax
Reply #40 - Sep 12^th, 2010 at 6:12pm

# wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 9:50am:

Dnarever wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 11:20am:

BigOl64 wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 11:09am:

Why does anyone who doesn't live in a mining area believe that the mining companies get the stuff for free, the fact is they pay the state government a huge royalties check for every tonne they dig up.

The original Super tax deal included a full rebate of royalties. If they are as huge an amount as you say the companies would have jumped at the offer. For many companies not making over the tax threshold they would have got a full rebate on the royalties and paid no additional tax.

The fact that the miners want to keep paying the royalties instead of paying additional 10% on profits after deductions and exemptions above the 6% profit threshold clearly indicates that the royalty payments are not the burden you infer.

I live in the Hunter Valley, one of Australia's oldest mining areas. I know people in the industry, mostly associated with smaller mining companies. For reasons that have already been canvassed, they favour the Rudd model.

The fact that the major miners choose to pay for mouthpieces like BigOl64, even in this forum, serves to demonstrate their determination to maintain the bludge that they've managed to establish over the decades. We could be flattered by the attention, but it really only shows that they have plenty of money to splash around.

The threshold is set at the long-term bond rate (currently around 6%), so it moves with the market.

Oh,. I gott have a good laugh at this post... People 'you know' in the mining industry want to pay MORE tax than they currently do. And you honestly expect anyone to believe that? But wait, there's more... GIven that there is now an alternative proposal that has the miners maying more than they do now but less than Rudd proposed, you expect us to believe that they STILL prefer the RUdd model? Did the entire mining tax campaign totally miss you? did you not see the anti-labor swing in QLD primarily on the back of the mining tax? Your credibility isnt helped by implausible arguments. If you want to lie you need to make the lie more believable because NO ONE who is sane wants to pay more tax.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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#

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Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax
Reply #41 - Sep 12^th, 2010 at 7:54pm

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 6:12pm:

...
Oh,. I gott have a good laugh at this post... People 'you know' in the mining industry want to pay MORE tax than they currently do. And you honestly expect anyone to believe that? But wait, there's more... GIven that there is now an alternative proposal that has the miners maying more than they do now but less than Rudd proposed, you expect us to believe that they STILL prefer the RUdd model? Did the entire mining tax campaign totally miss you? did you not see the anti-labor swing in QLD primarily on the back of the mining tax? Your credibility isnt helped by implausible arguments. If you want to lie you need to make the lie more believable because NO ONE who is sane wants to pay more tax.

You're conflating the major miners with the whole industry. According to the people I spoke to, the detail of the Rudd model was much friendlier to the smaller end of the industry.

The "entire mining tax campaign" was run by the majors, for the majors. The outcome disadvantaged smaller miners, as well as business in general.

I can't honestly claim to understand the details, but apparently the Rudd model didn't necessarily lead to a smaller miner paying more. There were also provisions for investment, exploration and (I think) depreciation that were mentioned favourably. Being a tax on profits, the majors would necessarily pay more than those lower down the totem pole. That's why they conned Rudd (and us).

You can support the bludgers if you must, but I'm certainly not about to.

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longweekend58

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Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax
Reply #42 - Sep 12^th, 2010 at 8:01pm

# wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 7:54pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 6:12pm:

...
Oh,. I gott have a good laugh at this post... People 'you know' in the mining industry want to pay MORE tax than they currently do. And you honestly expect anyone to believe that? But wait, there's more... GIven that there is now an alternative proposal that has the miners maying more than they do now but less than Rudd proposed, you expect us to believe that they STILL prefer the RUdd model? Did the entire mining tax campaign totally miss you? did you not see the anti-labor swing in QLD primarily on the back of the mining tax? Your credibility isnt helped by implausible arguments. If you want to lie you need to make the lie more believable because NO ONE who is sane wants to pay more tax.

You're conflating the major miners with the whole industry. According to the people I spoke to, the detail of the Rudd model was much friendlier to the smaller end of the industry.

The "entire mining tax campaign" was run by the majors, for the majors. The outcome disadvantaged smaller miners, as well as business in general.

I can't honestly claim to understand the details, but apparently the Rudd model didn't necessarily lead to a smaller miner paying more. There were also provisions for investment, exploration and (I think) depreciation that were mentioned favourably. Being a tax on profits, the majors would necessarily pay more than those lower down the totem pole. That's why they conned Rudd (and us).

You can support the bludgers if you must, but I'm certainly not about to.

You really are pro-tax arent you. the more the merrier - as long as it isnt you that pays. Or is it just that labor proposed it? it is the inequitable nature of these tax increases I dont like. Just one industry has to pay - not all of us and if course we have to make sure it is the one industry that saved our economy from recession. we must make sure we do the labor thing and punish high achievers!

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Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax
Reply #43 - Sep 12^th, 2010 at 8:17pm

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 8:01pm:

...
You really are pro-tax arent you.

Do you honestly believe all taxation is bad?
Quote:

the more the merrier - as long as it isnt you that pays.

Isn't that economically rational? Wink

Quote:

Or is it just that labor proposed it?

Good policy is good policy, no matter the source.
Quote:

it is the inequitable nature of these tax increases I dont like. Just one industry has to pay - not all of us

One industry perhaps, but targeted at that part of the industry which has managed to bludge increasingly, not only on us, but on the rest of the same industry.
Quote:

and if course we have to make sure it is the one industry that saved our economy from recession.

Is that true, or did we get through that crisis thanks to a good beginning (legacy of the previous government) and a current government that took a bit of a risk with stimulus funding? The stimulus was not all good – things done in haste rarely are – but it worked.
Quote:

we must make sure we do the labor thing and punish high achievers!

Drivel!

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Sayonara

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Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax
Reply #44 - Sep 12^th, 2010 at 8:18pm

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 8:01pm:

it is the one industry that saved our economy from recession.

What absolute rubbish! I doubt that you even know what the term "Consumer Confidence" relates to, and why spending is better than saving for the whole economy?

The Mining Industry employs about 30,000 people, and IF they all earned and spent $1,500 a week - there's no way in the world that that would have kept the rest of Australia's industries afloat and out of recession!

And as for the exports of Iron Ore and Coal - That only adds to the GDP - Not cash-in-hand for the worker to spend.

More.... The Mining Fart Bubble

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« Last Edit: Sep 12^th, 2010 at 8:42pm by Sayonara »

Seen enough - Pity this forum software doesn't have the option to "Ignore" particular members threads and posts. Sad

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