Australian Politics Forum - Independent threatens to block mining tax

BigOl64

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Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax
Reply #15 - Sep 11^th, 2010 at 11:16am

# wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 11:05am:

longweekend58 tacitly confirmed my post, except:
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 9:28am:

... those opposing the mining tax arent saying they should pay less or NO tax. they are saying that miners are ALREADY paying more taxes than most other companies and it should stay the same. Really, you should be a little more accurate that that!

They lied. According to people I spoke to (and they're in mining), over something more than two decades since the 1980s, the proportion of profits paid as tax went from around 30% to less than 15%. They did discuss how that happened, but I'm no expert so it largely went over my head. I do remember a substantial rise in profitability being mentioned.

Exploration, new equipment and plant as well as employing more people don't come cheap and it all comes off the tax bill.

Without exploration and expansion, the mining companies would just close up shop in short while.

As tax write offs go mining companies are no different to anyone else. The big difference in the taxes is, mining and energy companies pay royalties to the state, other industries don't.

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freediver

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Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax
Reply #16 - Sep 11^th, 2010 at 11:19am

There is another crucial difference. Mining companies don't actually produce or own what they sell. They just dig it up and move it. So they should only get paid for the value of what they do, not for the value of what is in the ground.

The increased profits have little to do with the value or efficiency of the digging and moving, but the value of the resource.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Dnarever

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Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax
Reply #17 - Sep 11^th, 2010 at 11:20am

BigOl64 wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 11:09am:

Why does anyone who doesn't live in a mining area believe that the mining companies get the stuff for free, the fact is they pay the state government a huge royalties check for every tonne they dig up.

The original Super tax deal included a full rebate of royalties. If they are as huge an amount as you say the companies would have jumped at the offer. For many companies not making over the tax threshold they would have got a full rebate on the royalties and paid no additional tax.

The fact that the miners want to keep paying the royalties instead of paying additional 10% on profits after deductions and exemptions above the 6% profit threshold clearly indicates that the royalty payments are not the burden you infer.

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adelcrow

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Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax
Reply #18 - Sep 11^th, 2010 at 11:25am

Wilkie knows that if this govt is forced to an election that he wont get the preferences that pushed him over the line. His seat would return to Labor so despite his sooky la la, prattish attitude i doubt he would knife the Labor govt.
Maybe Wilkie will "disappear" forcing a by election which would guarantee the Labor party another seat

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Go the Bunnies

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aussiefree2ride

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Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax
Reply #19 - Sep 11^th, 2010 at 12:56pm

freediver wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 11:19am:

There is another crucial difference. Mining companies don't actually produce or own what they sell. They just dig it up and move it. So they should only get paid for the value of what they do, not for the value of what is in the ground.

The increased profits have little to do with the value or efficiency of the digging and moving, but the value of the resource.

Communal mining, with all the comrades, from the execs to the cleaners being paid the same rate?

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freediver

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Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax
Reply #20 - Sep 11^th, 2010 at 12:58pm

aussiefree2ride wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 12:56pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 11:19am:

There is another crucial difference. Mining companies don't actually produce or own what they sell. They just dig it up and move it. So they should only get paid for the value of what they do, not for the value of what is in the ground.

The increased profits have little to do with the value or efficiency of the digging and moving, but the value of the resource.

Communal mining, with all the comrades, from the execs to the cleaners being paid the same rate?

Of course not. Just that they pay Australians the correct amount for taking the resources. They pay what the resource is worth, and get paid for the value of their service - exploration, investment, digging, transport etc.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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aussiefree2ride

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Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax
Reply #21 - Sep 11^th, 2010 at 1:02pm

freediver wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 12:58pm:

aussiefree2ride wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 12:56pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 11:19am:

There is another crucial difference. Mining companies don't actually produce or own what they sell. They just dig it up and move it. So they should only get paid for the value of what they do, not for the value of what is in the ground.

The increased profits have little to do with the value or efficiency of the digging and moving, but the value of the resource.

Communal mining, with all the comrades, from the execs to the cleaners being paid the same rate?

Of course not. Just that they pay Australians the correct amount for taking the resources. They pay what the resource is worth, and get paid for the value of their service - exploration, investment, digging, transport etc.

Like sub contractors then?

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aussiefree2ride Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3538	Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax Reply #22 - Sep 11^th, 2010 at 1:16pm Could you imagine someone like Peter Garrett, or Judas Gillard running something as complex as a mining enterprise? Or a school building programme where their only responsibility was to give other people`s money away? Or a school tuck shop? Or a chook raffle?
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qikvtec

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Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax
Reply #23 - Sep 11^th, 2010 at 1:22pm

freediver wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 11:15am:

It is not infinite. He is not the only independent the government must keep onside, and the independents are not the only people the government needs to consider.

It always comes back to the voters in the end.

The government would be more than happy to reject the independents if the public did too, so they could kill them off.

They only recently completely ignored the wishes of the voters for their own self gratifcation.

If one independent disagrees with the Govt the whole deck of cards comes crashing down; such is the state of our current federal govt.

He has infinite power. If the ALP doesn't take heed of whatever one or the collective bunch of independents want it's change of Govt time or back to the polls. They would be keen to avoid the later as it would almost certainly dictate their demise.

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Politicians and Nappies need to be changed often and for the same reason.

One trouble with political jokes is that they often get elected.

Alan Joyce for PM

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qikvtec

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Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax
Reply #24 - Sep 11^th, 2010 at 1:24pm

freediver wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 11:19am:

There is another crucial difference. Mining companies don't actually produce or own what they sell. They just dig it up and move it. So they should only get paid for the value of what they do, not for the value of what is in the ground.

The increased profits have little to do with the value or efficiency of the digging and moving, but the value of the resource.

Tax the arse out out of the agricultural industry also then.

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Politicians and Nappies need to be changed often and for the same reason.

One trouble with political jokes is that they often get elected.

Alan Joyce for PM

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qikvtec

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Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax
Reply #25 - Sep 11^th, 2010 at 1:25pm

Dnarever wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 11:20am:

BigOl64 wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 11:09am:

Why does anyone who doesn't live in a mining area believe that the mining companies get the stuff for free, the fact is they pay the state government a huge royalties check for every tonne they dig up.

The original Super tax deal included a full rebate of royalties. If they are as huge an amount as you say the companies would have jumped at the offer. For many companies not making over the tax threshold they would have got a full rebate on the royalties and paid no additional tax.

The fact that the miners want to keep paying the royalties instead of paying additional 10% on profits after deductions and exemptions above the 6% profit threshold clearly indicates that the royalty payments are not the burden you infer.

And yet they too were willing to bury the ALP; go figure.

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Politicians and Nappies need to be changed often and for the same reason.

One trouble with political jokes is that they often get elected.

Alan Joyce for PM

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#

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Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax
Reply #26 - Sep 11^th, 2010 at 1:55pm

qikvtec wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 1:24pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 11:19am:

There is another crucial difference. Mining companies don't actually produce or own what they sell. They just dig it up and move it. So they should only get paid for the value of what they do, not for the value of what is in the ground.

The increased profits have little to do with the value or efficiency of the digging and moving, but the value of the resource.

Tax the arse out out of the agricultural industry also then.

Actually, profits in agriculture have declined markedly. Most of what we pay for food goes to distributors and wholesalers.

Come to think of it, the Super Profits model would probably see most farmers paying little or nothing. I'm in favour!

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bridonta Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 522	Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax Reply #27 - Sep 11^th, 2010 at 3:59pm Look at the figures , how much money the mining bring in this country.? more than 60% while the property developers and bankers dried all the money from the public .. let tax who ??
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freediver

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Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax
Reply #28 - Sep 11^th, 2010 at 4:11pm

aussiefree2ride wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 1:02pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 12:58pm:

aussiefree2ride wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 12:56pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 11^th, 2010 at 11:19am:

There is another crucial difference. Mining companies don't actually produce or own what they sell. They just dig it up and move it. So they should only get paid for the value of what they do, not for the value of what is in the ground.

The increased profits have little to do with the value or efficiency of the digging and moving, but the value of the resource.

Communal mining, with all the comrades, from the execs to the cleaners being paid the same rate?

Of course not. Just that they pay Australians the correct amount for taking the resources. They pay what the resource is worth, and get paid for the value of their service - exploration, investment, digging, transport etc.

Like sub contractors then?

No. They take on the risk and get rewarded appropriately. No different to now really, except that we don't give the resources away dirt cheap.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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bridonta Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 522	Re: Independent threatens to block mining tax Reply #29 - Sep 11^th, 2010 at 4:14pm without the mining this country would be in the same as Greek and the rest .. bursting of debts and housing bubbles ..
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