Australian Politics Forum - The death of democracy in Australia

Yahoon

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Re: The death of democracy in Australia
Reply #30 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 8:59pm

stryder wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 8:53pm:

Its good to see those who lean mostly on the left who believe in the merits of compulsory voting and come out saying so.

If they didn't, they would lose a good percentage of the leftwing vote, traditionally inhabited by the young, the lazy, the idealists and the stupid. You might still get the idealists in there, but the rest would be too busy pulling cones on the couch if they didn't have to

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stryder

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Re: The death of democracy in Australia
Reply #31 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 9:06pm

If they didn't, they would lose a good percentage of the leftwing vote, traditionally inhabited by the young, the lazy, the idealists and the stupid. You might still get the idealists in there, but the rest would be too busy pulling cones on the couch if they didn't have to
Posted by: deepthought

================================================

You make some good points there.

But with the left and right political organisations we have a democracy which allows people ito decide whether this nation needs to move in the left or the right depending on there mood of the times, not everyone will like this system.

IN THE END THAT DEMOCRACY, thats what we fought 2 world wars for.

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stryder Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4545 Gender:	Re: The death of democracy in Australia Reply #32 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 9:07pm AND A VERY COLD WAR.
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stryder Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4545 Gender:	Re: The death of democracy in Australia Reply #33 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 9:09pm IN THE END THATS DEMOCRACY
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Dnarever

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Re: The death of democracy in Australia
Reply #34 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 9:19pm

Yahoon wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 8:59pm:

stryder wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 8:53pm:

Its good to see those who lean mostly on the left who believe in the merits of compulsory voting and come out saying so.

If they didn't, they would lose a good percentage of the leftwing vote, traditionally inhabited by the young, the lazy, the idealists and the stupid. You might still get the idealists in there, but the rest would be too busy pulling cones on the couch if they didn't have to

You are aware that it was introduced by a right wing govewrnment because they thought that they would get an advantage out of it by making those lazy well to do people who thought they were above having to vote be involved.

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deepthought

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Re: The death of democracy in Australia
Reply #35 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 9:30pm

Dnarever wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 9:19pm:

Yahoon wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 8:59pm:

stryder wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 8:53pm:

Its good to see those who lean mostly on the left who believe in the merits of compulsory voting and come out saying so.

If they didn't, they would lose a good percentage of the leftwing vote, traditionally inhabited by the young, the lazy, the idealists and the stupid. You might still get the idealists in there, but the rest would be too busy pulling cones on the couch if they didn't have to

You are aware that it was introduced by a right wing govewrnment because they thought that they would get an advantage out of it by making those lazy well to do people who thought they were above having to vote be involved.

The GALP opposed repealing compulsory voting in 1996.

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Mnemonic

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Re: The death of democracy in Australia
Reply #36 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 9:41pm

deepthought wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 8:58pm:

In a nation which proclaims political freedom it is anachronistic to have compulsory voting.

That would be a very "purist" definition of political freedom and it makes it sound almost fundamentalist. We already have political freedom. What I want is freedom from oppression, domination and persecution and I have that too.

deepthought wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 8:58pm:

Worse, as I see it, is that there would be many people who have no interest in politics at all. Yet they are forced to find their way to a polling booth and select someone they may never have heard of, have no interest in and no knowledge of.

It is an infrigement of our basic civil rights to be forced to take part in what really should be voluntary.

Could paying taxes an infringement of your basic rights?

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deepthought

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Re: The death of democracy in Australia
Reply #37 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 10:07pm

Mnemonic wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 9:41pm:

deepthought wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 8:58pm:

In a nation which proclaims political freedom it is anachronistic to have compulsory voting.

That would be a very "purist" definition of political freedom and it makes it sound almost fundamentalist. We already have political freedom. What I want is freedom from oppression, domination and persecution and I have that too.

Actually you don't. If you fail to vote you may be fined. Some may consider that oppressive.

Mnemonic wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 9:41pm:

deepthought wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 8:58pm:

Worse, as I see it, is that there would be many people who have no interest in politics at all. Yet they are forced to find their way to a polling booth and select someone they may never have heard of, have no interest in and no knowledge of.

It is an infrigement of our basic civil rights to be forced to take part in what really should be voluntary.

Could paying taxes an infringement of your basic rights?

No. Taxes are obligatory, as an essential element of the state.

Not voting is not a violation of any social contract though. It impacts no one but you.

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mellie

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Re: The death of democracy in Australia
Reply #38 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 10:15pm

stryder wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 8:53pm:

Its good to see those who lean mostly on the left who believe in the merits of compulsory voting and come out saying so.

I don't think any of us, left or right want to see our constitutional rights deflowered anymore than they have been.

With respects to this book I'm reading, I'm glad I found it and began reading it before seeing the link, because as much as I hate to admit it, (being agnostic)...I probably would have been reluctant on account of my own prejudice to read this little book had I seen it's link first.

Now, where are we:-some 25 years later and he was right on the mark.

What this man says is eerily truthful, and to this day, no politician has challenged him on what he saw coming, and in retrospect, this has indeed happened, and is happening now as we speak.

Clearly a very intelligent, insightful and concerned individual.

Also, I am pleased I was able to find an online copy for you lot to read... because this book is well and truly out of print now, I was very fortunate to find my copy in an antique book shop yesterday.

The second I began reading it, I knew it was the real deal, and knew this man knew exactly what he was talking about when he wrote this book, given he was writing about what he saw coming one quarter of a century before it happened, was writing about what's happening now in the way of Australian politics, and the corruption of both democracy, and our constitution.

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« Last Edit: Sep 5^th, 2010 at 10:28pm by mellie »

All together now Labor voters.......&&&&lap-tops, pink-bats refugees and Clunker-cars&&&&insurance.AES256

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longweekend58

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Re: The death of democracy in Australia
Reply #39 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 10:53pm

mozzaok wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 7:47pm:

Quote:

Im not basing my support of compulsory voting on the US experience which abrogates democracy all the time while preaching to the rest of the world how to do it.

I have now changed my mind to believe that voting is a very small obligation to support one of the worlds safest and most democratic societies. And if you really dont want to vote the fine is so small to be trivial. if the extent of our democratic obligations is compulsory voting then I dont see how it even begins to rate as a problem.

-longweekend

I completely agree with longy, and while I recognise that there are some negatives connected to compulsory voting, on balance I firmly believe that the positives it also carries are enough to warrant our keeping voting compulsory.

Do a little internal debate for yourselves, and try and think of all the positives, and negatives, and see which side of the argument, you think wins.

I used to believe in volutary voting but I had a change of heart ironically after a heated debate with a poster who believed being made to vote was a MAJOR attack on our rightes etc etc etc. after listening to his incessant whining and posturing I began to realie that voting was not just a right. it was a RESPONSIBILITY and not one we should shirk. This country is arguably the safest, most secure and most democratic on the planet. If defending that means requiring people to vote then it seems almost trivial. People literally die trying to get to this country and we dont want to spend 30mins every 3 years voting??? Its not like we are asking you to go to war and defend the country!

VOTING - not a right but a RESPONSIBILITY!

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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mellie Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 8142 Sydney Gender:	Re: The death of democracy in Australia Reply #40 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 10:55pm Quote: VOTING - not a right but a RESPONSIBILITY! Absolutely.
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longweekend58

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Re: The death of democracy in Australia
Reply #41 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 10:56pm

deepthought wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 8:58pm:

In a nation which proclaims political freedom it is anachronistic to have compulsory voting.

Worse, as I see it, is that there would be many people who have no interest in politics at all. Yet they are forced to find their way to a polling booth and select someone they may never have heard of, have no interest in and no knowledge of.

It is an infrigement of our basic civil rights to be forced to take part in what really should be voluntary.

garbage. there is nothing intrinsic or significant in the so-called 'right' to not vote. I respect people who for religious or cultural reason do not vote and are willing to APPLY for exemption. but lazy buggers who simply cant be bothered deserve to be fined. Think of the long long long list of things we are required to do... does voting come anywhere near the top of that list?

not even close!

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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stryder Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4545 Gender:	Re: The death of democracy in Australia Reply #42 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 10:58pm VOTING - not a right but a RESPONSIBILITY ================================================ Oh boy, and its 100% right, its the CLEAREST point, Australia has had a successful democracy, LETS MAKE SURE IT REMAINS THAT WAY.
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longweekend58

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Re: The death of democracy in Australia
Reply #43 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 11:00pm

deepthought wrote on Today at 8:58pm:

In a nation which proclaims political freedom it is anachronistic to have compulsory voting.

That would be a very "purist" definition of political freedom and it makes it sound almost fundamentalist. We already have political freedom. What I want is freedom from oppression, domination and persecution and I have that too.

Actually you don't. If you fail to vote you may be fined. Some may consider that oppressive.

its 10 times what you get for a speeding fine even tho you arent driving dangerously or unsafely. which is the great abrogation of a 'right'?

your definition of a 'right' is ludicrously broad.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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mellie

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Re: The death of democracy in Australia
Reply #44 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 11:11pm

The irony of how so many post-communist states actually emphasise the voluntary nature of voting.

Don't let the 'voluntary' concept of voting fool you into thinking it's about civil liberties, when in fact, it's their intention that a vast majority of those who may think they are exercising choice, this or have little understanding, or ambition/desire to learn about politics see voting as a waste of their time.

A chore, something they needn't bother with due to a nanny-state taking care of things for them in the absence of their vote.

They would much rather we were busying ourselves with other things, than exercising our democratic right to vote.

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All together now Labor voters.......&&&&lap-tops, pink-bats refugees and Clunker-cars&&&&insurance.AES256

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