Australian Politics Forum - The death of democracy in Australia

longweekend58

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Re: The death of democracy in Australia
Reply #15 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 6:39pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 6:29pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 6:25pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 6:20pm:

Mnemonic wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 6:18pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 6:02pm:

You do realise the United States is only ONE country that has voluntary voting?

How about Germany, Britain, France, Canada, Ireland, Holland, need I go on?

Every other developed significant country in the world have voluntary voting.

Yes, I do. The question is, how are these other countries better off than Australia? Do they not have problems? Why should Australia's electoral system be replaced with their's? I don't see any compelling reason to replace the current electoral system.

I didn't say they were better off.

I was shooting down your argument that voluntary voting causes lunatic fringes to take hold of the system but giving you countless examples of countries with stable democracies.

I like the idea of people only voting if they choose to.

Forcing people to go to the polls is all a bit Mugabe for my liking.

I used to agree with you but I've changed my mind. The US' voluntary voting system leads to a distortion of democracy by actively disenfranchising some minorities and allowing parties to actively enrol voters in seats likely to support them. Thats not good at all for genuine democracy. But if the price of democracy and freedom is the obligation to spend 1 hour every 3 years in a voting booth then I believe it to be extraordinary value!

You're falling into the trap of the USA being the only country in the world argument.

The US system is screwed on numerous fronts, none of them to do with voluntary voting.

What about all of the countries I listed?
Stable, moderate democracies - all with voluntary voting.

Is Holland in the pocket of the lunatic left or right?
Is Britain not a stable democracy?

Im not basing my support of compulsory voting on the US experience which abrogates democracy all the time while preaching to the rest of the world how to do it.

I have now changed my mind to believe that voting is a very small obligation to support one of the worlds safest and most democratic societies. And if you really dont want to vote the fine is so small to be trivial. if the extent of our democratic obligations is compulsory voting then I dont see how it even begins to rate as a problem.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Andrei.Hicks

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Re: The death of democracy in Australia
Reply #16 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 6:41pm

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 6:39pm:

I have now changed my mind to believe that voting is a very small obligation to support one of the worlds safest and most democratic societies. And if you really dont want to vote the fine is so small to be trivial. if the extent of our democratic obligations is compulsory voting then I dont see how it even begins to rate as a problem.

But you would agree that switching to a voluntary system doesn't remotely jeopardise the stability of Australia's democracy and that voluntary voting is not the cause of the US system failures?

Northern Europe is the bedrock of stability.

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Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination - Oscar Wilde

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Mnemonic

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Re: The death of democracy in Australia
Reply #17 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 6:42pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 6:20pm:

I like the idea of people only voting if they choose to.

I would feel lazy if I didn't vote. Is it really that hard to walk to the local voting booth? It only takes a few minutes.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 6:20pm:

Forcing people to go to the polls is all a bit Mugabe for my liking.

It's nothing close to being a Mugabe-like regime.

Imagine if there was a law that said that if you didn't vote you didn't deserve a government or political system and therefore you'd lose all your rights as a citizen and become stateless. You would cease to be a citizen. People who don't vote are lucky to not have that kind of law.

One line of reasoning is this. If you want a government and want to be ruled over and receive the benefits, you should vote. Otherwise, you won't receive the benefits of a government.

You were saying on one of the other threads that if you want something, you need to contribute ("put in") something to get it. You don't like freeloaders. Isn't choosing not to vote and receiving the benefits of government nonetheless a form of freeloading?

Voting doesn't cost you any money. It's just a bit of work -- walking to the voting booth. It will not reduce your bank balance.

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Andrei.Hicks

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Re: The death of democracy in Australia
Reply #18 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 6:43pm

Mnemonic wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 6:42pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 6:20pm:

I like the idea of people only voting if they choose to.

I would feel lazy if I didn't vote. Is it really that hard to walk to the local voting booth? It only takes a few minutes.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 6:20pm:

Forcing people to go to the polls is all a bit Mugabe for my liking.

It's nothing close to being a Mugabe-like regime.

Imagine if there was a law that said that if you didn't vote you didn't deserve a government or political system and therefore you'd lose all your rights as a citizen and become stateless. You would cease to be a citizen. People who don't vote are lucky to not have that kind of law.

One line of reasoning is this. If you want a government and want to be ruled over and receive the benefits, you should vote. Otherwise, you won't receive the benefits of a government.

You were saying on one of the other threads that if you want something, you need to contribute ("put in") something to get it. You don't like freeloaders. Isn't choosing not to vote and receiving the benefits of government nonetheless a form of freeloading?

Voting doesn't cost you any money. It's just a bit of work -- walking to the voting booth. It will not reduce your bank balance.

Disagree.
It's your right to vote, it also should be your right not to vote.

If none of them are what you want, you should have the right to not even leave your house on election day.

Leaving the US aside, no other major country forces its people to the polls and all have stable democracies.

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Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination - Oscar Wilde

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Mnemonic

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Re: The death of democracy in Australia
Reply #19 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 6:52pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 6:43pm:

Disagree.
It's your right to vote, it also should be your right not to vote.

If none of them are what you want, you should have the right to not even leave your house on election day.

Leaving the US aside, no other major country forces its people to the polls and all have stable democracies.

You do realise that you can always make a donkey/invalid vote? Your vote is private.

You're talking about rights. I'm talking about your anti-freeloader philosophy and I would be curious to know how far it goes.

Why should people receive the benefits of government if they don't contribute something? Why should they get something without a bit of "work?"

Why should people get a government if they didn't vote for one?

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qikvtec

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Re: The death of democracy in Australia
Reply #20 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 7:09pm

Mnemonic wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 6:52pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 6:43pm:

Disagree.
It's your right to vote, it also should be your right not to vote.

If none of them are what you want, you should have the right to not even leave your house on election day.

Leaving the US aside, no other major country forces its people to the polls and all have stable democracies.

You do realise that you can always make a donkey/invalid vote? Your vote is private.

You're talking about rights. I'm talking about your anti-freeloader philosophy and I would be curious to know how far it goes.

Why should people receive the benefits of government if they don't contribute something? Why should they get something without a bit of "work?"

Why should people get a government if they didn't vote for one?

Why can't the AEC issue a smart card or similarly secure device to all Australians with a registered Tax File Number, so that come election or referendum day you can vote from the comfort of your home. Couldn't be that difficult to instigate, nor particularly costly.

Only downside would be the lack of sausage sizzles, but you can always pop off to Bunnings or the local school fete for one of those.

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Politicians and Nappies need to be changed often and for the same reason.

One trouble with political jokes is that they often get elected.

Alan Joyce for PM

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Mnemonic Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1530 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The death of democracy in Australia Reply #21 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 7:14pm qikvtec wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 7:09pm: Only downside would be the lack of sausage sizzles, but you can always pop off to Bunnings or the local school fete for one of those. Ah..... sausage sizzles. Mmmmmmm......... that'd really get people off their backside and help them to fulfill their obligations.
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longweekend58

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Re: The death of democracy in Australia
Reply #22 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 7:38pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 6:41pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 6:39pm:

I have now changed my mind to believe that voting is a very small obligation to support one of the worlds safest and most democratic societies. And if you really dont want to vote the fine is so small to be trivial. if the extent of our democratic obligations is compulsory voting then I dont see how it even begins to rate as a problem.

But you would agree that switching to a voluntary system doesn't remotely jeopardise the stability of Australia's democracy and that voluntary voting is not the cause of the US system failures?

Northern Europe is the bedrock of stability.

But so is australia. we have probably the most stable system of govt in the world.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: The death of democracy in Australia
Reply #23 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 7:40pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 6:43pm:

Mnemonic wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 6:42pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 6:20pm:

I like the idea of people only voting if they choose to.

I would feel lazy if I didn't vote. Is it really that hard to walk to the local voting booth? It only takes a few minutes.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 6:20pm:

Forcing people to go to the polls is all a bit Mugabe for my liking.

It's nothing close to being a Mugabe-like regime.

Imagine if there was a law that said that if you didn't vote you didn't deserve a government or political system and therefore you'd lose all your rights as a citizen and become stateless. You would cease to be a citizen. People who don't vote are lucky to not have that kind of law.

One line of reasoning is this. If you want a government and want to be ruled over and receive the benefits, you should vote. Otherwise, you won't receive the benefits of a government.

You were saying on one of the other threads that if you want something, you need to contribute ("put in") something to get it. You don't like freeloaders. Isn't choosing not to vote and receiving the benefits of government nonetheless a form of freeloading?

Voting doesn't cost you any money. It's just a bit of work -- walking to the voting booth. It will not reduce your bank balance.

Disagree.
It's your right to vote, it also should be your right not to vote.

If none of them are what you want, you should have the right to not even leave your house on election day.

Leaving the US aside, no other major country forces its people to the polls and all have stable democracies.

The other poster is right when he says that if your personal beliefs include contributing to society as a whole as a mandatory requirement then making voting compulsory is most consistent with that belief.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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mozzaok

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Re: The death of democracy in Australia
Reply #24 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 7:47pm

Quote:

Im not basing my support of compulsory voting on the US experience which abrogates democracy all the time while preaching to the rest of the world how to do it.

I have now changed my mind to believe that voting is a very small obligation to support one of the worlds safest and most democratic societies. And if you really dont want to vote the fine is so small to be trivial. if the extent of our democratic obligations is compulsory voting then I dont see how it even begins to rate as a problem.

-longweekend

I completely agree with longy, and while I recognise that there are some negatives connected to compulsory voting, on balance I firmly believe that the positives it also carries are enough to warrant our keeping voting compulsory.

Do a little internal debate for yourselves, and try and think of all the positives, and negatives, and see which side of the argument, you think wins.

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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!

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mellie Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 8142 Sydney Gender:	Re: The death of democracy in Australia Reply #25 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 8:38pm I just had a google, and it appears, you guys wont have to go and buy this book, (It's out of print anyway)... http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/d&ta01.htm
Back to top	All together now Labor voters.......&&&&lap-tops, pink-bats refugees and Clunker-cars&&&&insurance.AES256 IP Logged

Dnarever

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Re: The death of democracy in Australia
Reply #26 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 8:45pm

I like the system we have and would not like to see it changed.

We are told to forget about the USA as an example so ok How about one of the other bastions of democracy the UK where a recent election was won with about 20% of the nations vote.

Aparently if 25% of the people approve of you its a landslide victory - only 75% hate you.

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stryder Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4545 Gender:	Re: The death of democracy in Australia Reply #27 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 8:51pm And yes I too believe in the merits and do support compulsory voting.
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stryder Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4545 Gender:	Re: The death of democracy in Australia Reply #28 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 8:53pm Its good to see those who lean mostly on the left who believe in the merits of compulsory voting and come out saying so.
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deepthought

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Re: The death of democracy in Australia
Reply #29 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 8:58pm

In a nation which proclaims political freedom it is anachronistic to have compulsory voting.

Worse, as I see it, is that there would be many people who have no interest in politics at all. Yet they are forced to find their way to a polling booth and select someone they may never have heard of, have no interest in and no knowledge of.

It is an infrigement of our basic civil rights to be forced to take part in what really should be voluntary.

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