Australian Politics Forum - Which policies will not get off the ground??

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Re: Which policies will not get off the ground??
Reply #60 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 3:03pm

Equitist wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 2:53pm:

...
Australia is a vast continent, with a relatively small and ubiquitous population.

The fair provision of accessible essential public services and infrastructure are not really conducive to highly profitable economies of scale!

Hence, the private sector has been unwilling and/or unable to deliver anywhere near adequate and affordable high-tech telecommunications services outside major metropolitan areas!

This should have been obvious, as far back as when the dogmatic Libs recklessly hocked Telstra (or part thereof - and definitely the wrong parts thereof)...

Actually, I think it was Labor that started the Telstra sellout. Howard just took it to a ludicrous extreme.

The market has failed to deliver appropriate telecommunications infrastructure. It just isn't profitable enough (the much-loved Commercial Viability article of the Market Capitalist faith) in most of the nation. Rectifying market failure is a responsibility of government.

A responsible government proposes to honour that. A potential government in waiting doesn't.

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Andrei.Hicks

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Re: Which policies will not get off the ground??
Reply #61 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 3:05pm

Then how do you explain Mrs Thatcher's successful programs of privatisation and the assertion -

"Businesses run businesses best. It is the job of Government to get out of the way"

Governments and public sectors are not good at budgeting, they do not have the accountability.

Providing services is one thing, doing it at an exhorbitant cost to us the taxpayer is quite another.

How else do you explain the Fuelwatch and Grocerywatch that produced NOTHING and cost us a fortune??

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Which policies will not get off the ground??
Reply #62 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 3:08pm

# wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 3:03pm:

Equitist wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 2:53pm:

...
Australia is a vast continent, with a relatively small and ubiquitous population.

The fair provision of accessible essential public services and infrastructure are not really conducive to highly profitable economies of scale!

Hence, the private sector has been unwilling and/or unable to deliver anywhere near adequate and affordable high-tech telecommunications services outside major metropolitan areas!

This should have been obvious, as far back as when the dogmatic Libs recklessly hocked Telstra (or part thereof - and definitely the wrong parts thereof)...

Actually, I think it was Labor that started the Telstra sellout. Howard just took it to a ludicrous extreme.

The market has failed to deliver appropriate telecommunications infrastructure. It just isn't profitable enough (the much-loved Commercial Viability article of the Market Capitalist faith) in most of the nation. Rectifying market failure is a responsibility of government.

A responsible government proposes to honour that responsibility. A potential government in waiting doesn't.

You're right david....Keating did the original 1/3 stock sale of Telstra (which did provide a lot of cash when we needed it)..
But NO government should have allowed the total sales to go beyond 49%....which Howard did.....and which was an incredibly stupid thing to do....

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Which policies will not get off the ground??
Reply #63 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 3:09pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 3:05pm:

Then how do you explain Mrs Thatcher's successful programs of privatisation and the assertion -

"Businesses run businesses best. It is the job of Government to get out of the way"

Governments and public sectors are not good at budgeting, they do not have the accountability.

Providing services is one thing, doing it at an exhorbitant cost to us the taxpayer is quite another.

How else do you explain the Fuelwatch and Grocerywatch that produced NOTHING and cost us a fortune??

You can allow 'Businesses' to run something like Telstra, without giving away ALL control and revenue....

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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mozzaok

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Re: Which policies will not get off the ground??
Reply #64 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 3:23pm

Quote:

At last estimate the cost of the NBN was $47b

WHY LIE???

Are you afraid the truth will be insufficient to support your opinions?

"Fibre to 90 per cent of premises: $26.6 billion

Last 10 per cent of premises: $5.3 billion
Backhaul (connecting networks together): $3.3 billion
Overhead: $2 billion
Out tuning (with 2.5 per cent inflation): $5.6 billion

Total: $42.8 billion"

Now another lie the opposition has been pushing hard on, and all the whiners swallowed hook line and sinker is the government is pouring 43billion in.
WRONG!!!

The government investment is 27 billion, the rest comes from private investment.

So it is a big investment in our country, and in our future, so is it worth it??

The Drum on the ABC has a comprehensive article that lays out all the salient facts and does not take political sides, so check it out for yourself, here;

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/08/20/2989172.htm

So I will leave you with this quote from that article, it sums up pretty well the Opposition alternative.

"Then there's the alternative. Opponents to slam the Government's proposal for being drawn up on the back of a napkin. Well if the $25 million implementation study represents a napkin it's tricky to say what the $6 billion alternative scheme was drawn up on. Pouring $6 billion into a rotting copper network and virtually-unfeasible wireless network to achieve peak speeds that the Japanese were rolling out nine years ago is a rather depressing vision of Australia's technological future. As a value proposition, you be the judge."

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longweekend58

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Re: Which policies will not get off the ground??
Reply #65 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 3:26pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 2:56pm:

If publicly funded programs do not pass economic viability and profitability tests that private companies enact - then they should not proceed.

There is a reason private companies stay afloat and a reason why so many public Government funded schemes fall flat - because they don't treat it the same.

The Government assumes it would be a bottomless pit of our money - which is wrong.

If that BER program had been a program at any of the multi-nationals I have worked for, Julia Gillard as head of it would have been fired immediately.

If the BER has been run by a private company only half of the money would have been wasted and a lot less examples of unusable and unwanted buildings would have occured.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Dsmithy70

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Re: Which policies will not get off the ground??
Reply #66 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 3:28pm

mozzaok wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 3:23pm:

Quote:

At last estimate the cost of the NBN was $47b

WHY LIE???

Are you afraid the truth will be insufficient to support your opinions?

"Fibre to 90 per cent of premises: $26.6 billion

Last 10 per cent of premises: $5.3 billion
Backhaul (connecting networks together): $3.3 billion
Overhead: $2 billion
Out tuning (with 2.5 per cent inflation): $5.6 billion

Total: $42.8 billion"

Now another lie the opposition has been pushing hard on, and all the whiners swallowed hook line and sinker is the government is pouring 43billion in.
WRONG!!!

The government investment is 27 billion, the rest comes from private investment.

So it is a big investment in our country, and in our future, so is it worth it??

The Drum on the ABC has a comprehensive article that lays out all the salient facts and does not take political sides, so check it out for yourself, here;

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/08/20/2989172.htm

So I will leave you with this quote from that article, it sums up pretty well the Opposition alternative.

"Then there's the alternative. Opponents to slam the Government's proposal for being drawn up on the back of a napkin. Well if the $25 million implementation study represents a napkin it's tricky to say what the $6 billion alternative scheme was drawn up on. Pouring $6 billion into a rotting copper network and virtually-unfeasible wireless network to achieve peak speeds that the Japanese were rolling out nine years ago is a rather depressing vision of Australia's technological future. As a value proposition, you be the judge."

Just watching the Insiders now and a great point on the cost of the NBN was that back in the day the railways were a massive investment at the time.
A nice comparision I thought, anyone want to dispute that the rail network was a waste?

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REBELLION is when you turn off the TV & start educating & thinking for yourself.
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mozzaok

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Re: Which policies will not get off the ground??
Reply #67 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 3:37pm

IF IF IF

IF we had not been on the brink of a catastrophic recession, more planning would have been great.

If we had years to sort through plans and projections, some projects would have been altered or rejected.

If we had chosen to spend time on installing enough oversights to guarantee their would be no waste, we would have failed to protect the building industry from catastrophic collapse, and an ensuing cataclysmic round of company failures and layoffs.

The building industry, not the mining industry, is the bread and butter industry this country runs on, and when the building industry sneezes, we all catch cold.

In reflection we always find mistakes we would change, but on balance, the BER was a brilliantly well run scheme, and deserves to be seen as such, despite the odd few rorts and stuff ups, which the opposition misrepresent dramatically, but disingenuously, and which pale in comparison to the vast majority of great projects delivered that benefit our kids, and our economy.

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longweekend58

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Re: Which policies will not get off the ground??
Reply #68 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 3:47pm

mozzaok wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 3:23pm:

Quote:

At last estimate the cost of the NBN was $47b

WHY LIE???

Are you afraid the truth will be insufficient to support your opinions?

"Fibre to 90 per cent of premises: $26.6 billion

Last 10 per cent of premises: $5.3 billion
Backhaul (connecting networks together): $3.3 billion
Overhead: $2 billion
Out tuning (with 2.5 per cent inflation): $5.6 billion

Total: $42.8 billion"

Now another lie the opposition has been pushing hard on, and all the whiners swallowed hook line and sinker is the government is pouring 43billion in.
WRONG!!!

The government investment is 27 billion, the rest comes from private investment.

So it is a big investment in our country, and in our future, so is it worth it??

The Drum on the ABC has a comprehensive article that lays out all the salient facts and does not take political sides, so check it out for yourself, here;

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/08/20/2989172.htm

So I will leave you with this quote from that article, it sums up pretty well the Opposition alternative.

"Then there's the alternative. Opponents to slam the Government's proposal for being drawn up on the back of a napkin. Well if the $25 million implementation study represents a napkin it's tricky to say what the $6 billion alternative scheme was drawn up on. Pouring $6 billion into a rotting copper network and virtually-unfeasible wireless network to achieve peak speeds that the Japanese were rolling out nine years ago is a rather depressing vision of Australia's technological future. As a value proposition, you be the judge."

Given that the NBN costs are ESTIMATES only and that there has been no cost benefit analysis nor viability analysis and that there private sector involvement is ASSUMED and not actually in place Id say the current estimate of $43B is no more than a guess.

ANd given that nothing the labor govt did came in anywhere near on budget or acheived any of its stated goals why shoudl we expect such a massive project to do so? That would be silly.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Re: Which policies will not get off the ground??
Reply #69 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 3:49pm

Dsmithy70 wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 3:28pm:

...
Just watching the Insiders now and a great point on the cost of the NBN was that back in the day the railways were a massive investment at the time.
A nice comparision I thought, anyone want to dispute that the rail network was a waste?

It does seem to be that governments do what business is afraid to do.

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# Gold Member Offline A fool is certain: an ignorant fool, absolutely so Posts: 2603	Re: Which policies will not get off the ground?? Reply #70 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 3:52pm longweekend58 wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 3:47pm: ... Given that the NBN costs are ESTIMATES only ... Id say the current estimate of $43B is no more than a guess. ... Treasury estimates no more than guesses? Your biases are showing.
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longweekend58

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Re: Which policies will not get off the ground??
Reply #71 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 3:53pm

Dsmithy70 wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 3:28pm:

mozzaok wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 3:23pm:

Quote:

At last estimate the cost of the NBN was $47b

WHY LIE???

Are you afraid the truth will be insufficient to support your opinions?

"Fibre to 90 per cent of premises: $26.6 billion

Last 10 per cent of premises: $5.3 billion
Backhaul (connecting networks together): $3.3 billion
Overhead: $2 billion
Out tuning (with 2.5 per cent inflation): $5.6 billion

Total: $42.8 billion"

Now another lie the opposition has been pushing hard on, and all the whiners swallowed hook line and sinker is the government is pouring 43billion in.
WRONG!!!

The government investment is 27 billion, the rest comes from private investment.

So it is a big investment in our country, and in our future, so is it worth it??

The Drum on the ABC has a comprehensive article that lays out all the salient facts and does not take political sides, so check it out for yourself, here;

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/08/20/2989172.htm

So I will leave you with this quote from that article, it sums up pretty well the Opposition alternative.

"Then there's the alternative. Opponents to slam the Government's proposal for being drawn up on the back of a napkin. Well if the $25 million implementation study represents a napkin it's tricky to say what the $6 billion alternative scheme was drawn up on. Pouring $6 billion into a rotting copper network and virtually-unfeasible wireless network to achieve peak speeds that the Japanese were rolling out nine years ago is a rather depressing vision of Australia's technological future. As a value proposition, you be the judge."

Just watching the Insiders now and a great point on the cost of the NBN was that back in the day the railways were a massive investment at the time.
A nice comparision I thought, anyone want to dispute that the rail network was a waste?

and if u remember your history you will recall that the state governments each chose a different rail guage and the result was a mess. are you sure you want to compare the two???

and what needs to not be forgotten is that we actually DO have a broadband network that works and works very well. Im all for increasing the network and fixing up the substandard parts but a completely new network? not so sure of thet need and at the truly gigantic cost it is rididulous.

Your comparison with a railway network looks a little silly if the govt had bulit an entirely new railtway network to overcome the shortfalls in the original one. they took the proper and responsible course and fixed the old one instead of building a brand new one.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Re: Which policies will not get off the ground??
Reply #72 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 3:57pm

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 3:26pm:

...
If the BER has been run by a private company only half of the money would have been wasted ...

So you acknowledge that a private company couldn't have avoided waste under the circumstances. That's unusually honest for around here.

Could any single company have handled the workload? Could they have delivered in the timeframe?

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Dsmithy70

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Re: Which policies will not get off the ground??
Reply #73 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 4:00pm

Quote:

and if u remember your history you will recall that the state governments each chose a different rail guage and the result was a mess. are you sure you want to compare the two???

Yet another great argument for getting rid of these waste of money layer of government.
And the network being built by the feds not the idiot states.

Quote:

Your comparison with a railway network looks a little silly if the govt had bulit an entirely new railtway network to overcome the shortfalls in the original one. they took the proper and responsible course and fixed the old one instead of building a brand new one.

I believe we are upgrading the network not building a whole new one.
I maybe wrong I'm not a "tech head" Grin

I'm more concerned with Conroy's censorship Angry

With your premiss the old nokia brick was enough and all the improvements to mobiles are a waste.

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REBELLION is not what most people think it is.
REBELLION is when you turn off the TV & start educating & thinking for yourself.
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mozzaok

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Re: Which policies will not get off the ground??
Reply #74 - Sep 5^th, 2010 at 4:08pm

Quote:

that works and works very well

Sorry Longy, but you know not of what you speak.

The description of "an aging, rotting, copper network", is not hyperbole, but an accurate description of what we have.

Do you maintain a T model ford as your daily drive?
Of course not, most people recognise the inherent value of having a modern vehicle that delivers comfort, safety, and reliability, and it is a sound principle that makes them take that decision.
The NBN is replacing our country's T model copper network, with a state of the art fibre network that will deliver both reliability, and functionality, that NO COPPER network, ever could, irrespective of how much you spent on it.

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