Australian Politics Forum - A nuclear Australia

Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 118715 Melbourne Gender:	Re: A nuclear Australia Reply #15 - Aug 14^th, 2010 at 10:59pm Deepthought Quote: We will have developed fusion reactors before there is much chance of running out. Fusion may turn out to be uneconomic. Thorium reactors will be a good contender.
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mantra

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Re: A nuclear Australia
Reply #16 - Aug 14^th, 2010 at 10:59pm

deepthought wrote on Aug 14^th, 2010 at 10:49pm:

Uranium is abundant in the earth's crust.

We will have developed fusion reactors before there is much chance of running out.

No it isn't abundant, nor is thorium a viable replacement at present. The technology hasn't progressed past theory. Fusion reactors still need more energy to run than they produce. We can't base our future energy supplies on theories.

Quote:

The world uses 67,000 tons of mined uranium a year. At current usage, this is equal to about seventy years of supply. The World Nuclear Association says demand is projected to grow by 33 percent in the next decade to correspond with a 27 percent projected growth in nuclear reactor capacity. However, more efficient nuclear reactors, such as "fast-reactor" technology, could extend those supplies by more than two thousand years.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/14705/global_uranium_supply_and_demand.html

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mellie

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Re: A nuclear Australia
Reply #17 - Aug 14^th, 2010 at 11:16pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2010 at 10:41pm:

Has anyone here considered a Thorium Reactor for Australia?
The Indians are well ahead of us.

See link:

http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/nuclear/qa-thorium-reactor-designer-ratan-kumar-sinha

There are a few concerns with it however...one being the technology isn't quite ready for commercial use here in Australia, also the potential for weapon mobilisation concerning it's by products as the thorium fuel cycle creates 233U, which, if separated from the reactor's fuel, can be used for making nuclear weapons
and it's ongoing interests in countries currently investing more research into it than others such as India where there's more of it than any other place in the world, (we being second most abundant) abundance of it is of interest, China again missing out, so they are pretty well stuffed, and would be in pursuit of this substance I would assume.

It's worth a thought, but has our technology advanced enough for commercial use? No not in the foreseeable future, least not for another 20 or so years+.

India are still only in the research/test phase of commercial production.

Thorium continues to be a tanatalising possibility for use in nuclear power reactors, though for many years India has been the only sponsor of major research efforts to use it. Other endeavours include the development of the Radkowsky Thorium Reactor concept being carried out by US company Thorium Power (now Lightbridge Corporation) with Russian collaboration.

In mid-2009, AECL signed agreements with three Chinese entities to develop and demonstrate the use of thorium fuel in the Candu reactors at Qinshan in China. Another mid-2009 agreement, between Areva and Lightbridge Corporation, was for assessing the use of thorium fuel in Areva's EPR, drawing upon earlier research. Thorium can also be used in Generation IV and other advanced nuclear fuel cycle systems.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf62.html

With uranium beginning to deplete, it's hardly surprising why China want to invest in our country.

Cool

Not even a centuries worth left of uranium hu!!

Roll Eyes

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Bobby.

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Re: A nuclear Australia
Reply #18 - Aug 14^th, 2010 at 11:18pm

Mantra
Quote:

nor is thorium a viable replacement at present.

Rubbish - there are already working reactors:
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf62.html

Quote:

Power reactors

Much experience has been gained in thorium-based fuel in power reactors around the world, some using high-enriched uranium (HEU) as the main fuel:

The 300 MWe THTR (Thorium High Temperature Reactor) reactor in Germany was developed from the AVR and operated between 1983 and 1989 with 674,000 pebbles, over half containing Th/HEU fuel (the rest graphite moderator and some neutron absorbers). These were continuously recycled on load and on average the fuel passed six times through the core.
The Fort St Vrain reactor was the only commercial thorium-fuelled nuclear plant in the USA, also developed from the AVR in Germany, and operated 1976-1989. It was a high-temperature (700°C), graphite-moderated, helium-cooled reactor with a Th/HEU fuel designed to operate at 842 MWth (330 MWe). The fuel was in microspheres of thorium carbide and Th/U-235 carbide coated with silicon oxide and pyrolytic carbon to retain fission products. It was arranged in hexagonal columns ('prisms') rather than as pebbles. Almost 25 tonnes of thorium was used in fuel for the reactor, and this achieved 170,000 MWd/t burn-up.
Thorium-based fuel for PWRs was investigated at the Shippingport reactor in the USA (discussed in the section below on the Light Water Breeder Reactor).
In India, thorium has been used for power flattening in the initial cores of the two Kakrapar pressurised heavy water reactors (PHWRs).
The 60 MWe Lingen Boiling Water Reactor (BWR) in Germany utilised Th/Pu-based fuel test elements.

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mellie

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Re: A nuclear Australia
Reply #19 - Aug 14^th, 2010 at 11:24pm

Mantras right, it's not a viable commercial prospect at present, is more a generation IV fuel.

Far time Australia caught up with it's own mineral technology though, because if we don't, some other nation will, and we will be deplete supplying the rest of the world their generation IV fuels, whilst rubbing sticks together trying to generate our own in kangaroo skins.

Cool

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mellie

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Re: A nuclear Australia
Reply #20 - Aug 14^th, 2010 at 11:32pm

Bob...

Power reactors

Much experience has been gained in thorium-based fuel in power reactors around the world, some using high-enriched uranium (HEU) as the main fuel:
#The 300 MWe THTR (Thorium High Temperature Reactor) reactor in Germany was developed from the AVR and operated between 1983 and 1989 with 674,000 pebbles, over half containing Th/HEU fuel (the rest graphite moderator and some neutron absorbers). These were continuously recycled on load and on average the fuel passed six times through the core.
#The Fort St Vrain reactor was the only commercial thorium-fuelled nuclear plant in the USA, also developed from the AVR in Germany, and operated 1976-1989. It was a high-temperature (700°C), graphite-moderated, helium-cooled reactor with a Th/HEU fuel designed to operate at 842 MWth (330 MWe). The fuel was in microspheres of thorium carbide and Th/U-235 carbide coated with silicon oxide and pyrolytic carbon to retain fission products. It was arranged in hexagonal columns ('prisms') rather than as pebbles. Almost 25 tonnes of thorium was used in fuel for the reactor, and this achieved 170,000 MWd/t burn-up.
#Thorium-based fuel for PWRs was investigated at the Shippingport reactor in the USA (discussed in the section below on the Light Water Breeder Reactor).
#In India, thorium has been used for power flattening in the initial cores of the two Kakrapar pressurised heavy water reactors (PHWRs).
The 60 MWe Lingen Boiling Water Reactor (BWR) in Germany utilised Th/Pu-based fuel test elements.
--------------------------------------------------

So Bob, it's still in it's relative infancy, and not quite commercially viable in it's entirety yet.

In India, thorium has only been used for power flattening in the initial cores of the two Kakrapar pressurised heavy water reactors (PHWRs)...so.... not quite there yet.

Had we planned on burning coal for the next 70 years until our uranium depleted, then convert to this then "hopefully" commercially-ready thorium reactor?
Cool

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Bobby.

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Re: A nuclear Australia
Reply #21 - Aug 14^th, 2010 at 11:36pm

mellie wrote on Aug 14^th, 2010 at 11:24pm:

Mantras right, it's not a viable commercial prospect at present, is more a generation IV fuel.

Far time Australia caught up with it's own mineral technology though, because if we don't, some other nation will, and we will be deplete supplying the rest of the world their generation IV fuels, whilst rubbing sticks together trying to generate our own in kangaroo skins.

Cool

Whatever you want to believe.
We should be building & learning about Thorium reactors here in Australia.
Instead India is way ahead.
The science is OK - it's engineering problems that can be overcome
with enough time & money.

We have great reserves of Thorium in Australia.
If we also have the technology - we could have it all.
The world will be paying us.
It could also end coal fired power stations.

We aren't leaders in it because our governments are all useless.
The amount of money labor wasted on the BER could have
paid for many safe Thorium reactors.

If we owned the Thorium & the technology we'd be incredibly rich
in Australia.

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mellie Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 8142 Sydney Gender:	Re: A nuclear Australia Reply #22 - Aug 14^th, 2010 at 11:40pm But thanks for introducing us to thorium none the less Bob, and yes, it's definitely something to think about, this and work towards commercial use and HOPEFULLY preserve/hoard, this opposed to depleting it before we have even started using it like we did our uranium. ...Perhaps another 20/30 years?
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mellie

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Re: A nuclear Australia
Reply #23 - Aug 14^th, 2010 at 11:53pm

I cant believe I have just spent a Saturday night (sick in bed) sniffling with you guys discussing viable energy alternatives.

You guys are absolutely addictive... my brand of crack!

Cheesy

..

Thanks

.....or perhaps it's the Codral... hahah na, I cant take codral these days unfortunately, of which is a contraindication with respects to my now regular medication. Most disappointing, but you guys took my mind off being sick.

Why am I sick... well I went caving last Saturday, then to a BBQ lunch with friends on Sunday, which turned into a cold evening affair without heating in my friends backyard (school reunion kinda thingy)...

The diseased people that they be, obviously caught it off one of them.

Angry

I will put the pics up of my caving tomorrow, in the chat thread, why not.

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« Last Edit: Aug 15^th, 2010 at 12:25am by mellie »

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Bobby.

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Re: A nuclear Australia
Reply #24 - Aug 15^th, 2010 at 12:04am

Well guys & gals.
We need people with vision in Australia.
WE need to start a Thorium reactor & mining industry which
we can sell to the world.
This is hard to organise - it would be like the Manhatten Project.

Certainly people like labor who couldn't organise some
school buildings & some Pink Batts couldn't do it.

We would need to buy up the best scientists from India & elsewhere
to help us.
It could be done but we need vision.

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mellie

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Re: A nuclear Australia
Reply #25 - Aug 15^th, 2010 at 12:10am

Bobby. wrote on Aug 15^th, 2010 at 12:04am:

Well guys & gals.
We need people with vision in Australia.
WE need to start a Thorium reactor & mining industry which
we can sell to the world.
This is hard to organise - it would be like the Manhatten Project.

Certainly people like labor who couldn't organise some
school buildings & some Pink Batts couldn't do it.

We would need to buy up the best scientists from India & elsewhere
to help us.
It could be done but we need vision.

I thoroughly agree, and given by the time we get our finger out and rub two pieces of uranium together to generate electricity, we will definitely require an alternative, as like Mantra said, we are already close to being depleted, no thanks to our wasteful archaic ways.

It's definitely a viable future reactor fuel, perhaps we should start now, this opposed to being left behind again?

Roll Eyes

I just wish we could make the switch now, (over to uranium-nuclear until the time comes to make the switch to thorium)...because by then, our nuclear plants will be due for replacing anyway, and perhaps with your suggested alternative?

.... Can our environment wait another 30 years of our burning coal is what I'm asking?

Personally, I think it will come at a cost if we do.

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Bobby.

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Re: A nuclear Australia
Reply #26 - Aug 15^th, 2010 at 12:21am

Mellie
Quote:

I just wish we could make the switch now, (over to uranium-nuclear until the time comes to make the switch to thorium)

Why not make a huge leap & go straight to Thorium?
Imagine safe supplies of electricity at affordable prices
with zero green house gases.
Thorium reactors can't go critical.
They are inherently safe & the science is proven - you can get
energy from Thorium.

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Sir lastnail

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Re: A nuclear Australia
Reply #27 - Aug 15^th, 2010 at 12:23am

mellie wrote on Aug 14^th, 2010 at 11:24pm:

Mantras right, it's not a viable commercial prospect at present, is more a generation IV fuel.

Far time Australia caught up with it's own mineral technology though, because if we don't, some other nation will, and we will be deplete supplying the rest of the world their generation IV fuels, whilst rubbing sticks together trying to generate our own in kangaroo skins.

Cool

It's probably more viable than the never ever clean coal technology Wink

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Sir lastnail

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Re: A nuclear Australia
Reply #28 - Aug 15^th, 2010 at 12:28am

Bobby. wrote on Aug 15^th, 2010 at 12:04am:

Well guys & gals.
We need people with vision in Australia.
WE need to start a Thorium reactor & mining industry which
we can sell to the world.
This is hard to organise - it would be like the Manhatten Project.

Certainly people like labor who couldn't organise some
school buildings & some Pink Batts couldn't do it.

We would need to buy up the best scientists from India & elsewhere
to help us.
It could be done but we need vision.

Vision is something you won't get from labor or liberal. They would prefer to train up trades people instead of engineers and scientists. It makes you wonder what on earth they are trying to achieve with this so called education revolution. Educating people to do what ?? Change tap washers Sad

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mellie

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Re: A nuclear Australia
Reply #29 - Aug 15^th, 2010 at 12:39am

Bobby. wrote on Aug 15^th, 2010 at 12:21am:

Mellie
Quote:

I just wish we could make the switch now, (over to uranium-nuclear until the time comes to make the switch to thorium)

Why not make a huge leap & go straight to Thorium?
Imagine safe supplies of electricity at affordable prices
with zero green house gases.
Thorium reactors can't go critical.
They are inherently safe & the science is proven - you can get
energy from Thorium.

Because there are only 4 or so thorium plants in the world, all of which are in their relative infancy, phase of combined fuel production/development (power generating wise), this and it will be difficult convincing Australians to go with a less tested product than a more tried and tested Uranium fuelled reactor.

I mean, we are bad enough 'levitating' to something other countries have been safely using for decades, can you imagine the blood draining from the sceptics faces and financial backing from our investors wallets if we start talking futuristic generation IV Thorium reactors without the technology being power-generating commercially ready?

We haven't even evolved to uranium yet, and it's only just now we are taking a shine to the idea.

They will flip, and rightfully so, because having it commercially ready could take another 20 to 30 years, when we could just go uranium nuclear tomorrow if we liked.

I think India would like us to go for it, because it will mean our developing the technology for them to take advantage of with their own thorium resources when the time comes... I think we should bare this in mind also.

Till then, we should work towards investing in a variety of renewable alternatives, along with uranium I think, because like uranium, eventually thorium will deplete eventually also, this is if we don't sell it to China first.
See, we are a slow people here in Oz... well, a majority of us are anyway.

I guess what i'm saying is why place all our eggs in the one basket, when eventually, this basket wont last anyway?
Cool

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« Last Edit: Aug 15^th, 2010 at 12:47am by mellie »

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