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Ground Zero mosque defies logic (Read 31150 times)
freediver
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Ground Zero mosque defies logic
Aug 11th, 2010 at 7:33pm
 
I think the Americans are being a little oversensitive about this.

Ground Zero mosque defies logic

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/ground-zero-mosque-defies-logic/story-e6frg6so-1225903138096

NOW that Tom Friedman in The New York Times has endorsed the construction of an Islamic centre at Ground Zero, no one can be against it.

But since he has not even made a real argument for it, aside from recounting his experience at a Broadway jamboree in the White House, where the only Muslim name was the President's middle one, which is nothing more than a non sequitur, the column stands alone with neither evidence nor logic.

Still, everybody is for it . . . except Abe Foxman and his Anti-Defamation League who are correct but had better keep quiet lest they bare the stigma of prejudice that comes from being against something whose only justification is that it has no reason.

So what is the real positive excuse for a mosque at Ground Zero? Perhaps to demonstrate that we don't hold anything against the men who did it.

Or to show that we have nothing against the culture from which they came. And nothing against the societies across all Islam that cheered the news of the 3000 dead.

But, of course, these are not accurate assertions of our emotions, then or now. Even as we try to understand them, we despise them. No mosque built on the ground where mothers and fathers, children and grandparents, relatives and friends and lovers were sacrificed will ever console or conciliate.

At best, it will remind of the cool brutality and fierce passion that animated these ghoulish people of faith to murder on a scale so huge almost to daunt the imagination. Ironically it will backfire because it will (rightly) remind visitors of the religious identity of the perpetrators.

And, of course, the imagination was daunted only by the conscientious American decision-makers who deprived the polis of the true images of maimed bodies, broken limbs, desperate souls flying through the air, perhaps to land where the kadhi will intone the principles of the Muslim faith.

Given the absence of a logical explanation for this mosque, the ex cathedra reason is that it is a monument to the American credo of the freedom of religion. But that is surely insincere, at least on the part of the Islamic prayer house sponsors, who are more motivated to slip under the First Amendment protections here than to make them their own anywhere else. Islam in New York would have been just as free 10 blocks away.

In fact, the presence of an Islamic place of prayer at the sight of the human catastrophe of September 11, 2001, will be an insult to the dead. It would be as if Japan were to erect a museum about its delicate treatment of women, and to erect that museum precisely in Nanking, China. Or Germany to establish a series of Goethe Institutes where the Vilna Ghetto and the concentration camp of Maidanek once stood. Or, for that matter, Serbia might be accommodated to construct a monument to its sufferings under the Nazis in Srebrenica where it later murdered 10,000 Bosnians.

I am as much for understanding and reconciliation as the next man. But there are dark places where the only appropriate emotions are anger and grief.
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Ground Zero mosque defies logic
Reply #1 - Aug 11th, 2010 at 7:38pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 11th, 2010 at 7:33pm:
I think the Americans are being a little oversensitive about this.

Ground Zero mosque defies logic

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/ground-zero-mosque-defies-logic/story-e6frg6so-1225903138096

NOW that Tom Friedman in The New York Times has endorsed the construction of an Islamic centre at Ground Zero, no one can be against it.

But since he has not even made a real argument for it, aside from recounting his experience at a Broadway jamboree in the White House, where the only Muslim name was the President's middle one, which is nothing more than a non sequitur, the column stands alone with neither evidence nor logic.

Still, everybody is for it . . . except Abe Foxman and his Anti-Defamation League who are correct but had better keep quiet lest they bare the stigma of prejudice that comes from being against something whose only justification is that it has no reason.

So what is the real positive excuse for a mosque at Ground Zero? Perhaps to demonstrate that we don't hold anything against the men who did it.

Or to show that we have nothing against the culture from which they came. And nothing against the societies across all Islam that cheered the news of the 3000 dead.

But, of course, these are not accurate assertions of our emotions, then or now. Even as we try to understand them, we despise them. No mosque built on the ground where mothers and fathers, children and grandparents, relatives and friends and lovers were sacrificed will ever console or conciliate.

At best, it will remind of the cool brutality and fierce passion that animated these ghoulish people of faith to murder on a scale so huge almost to daunt the imagination. Ironically it will backfire because it will (rightly) remind visitors of the religious identity of the perpetrators.

And, of course, the imagination was daunted only by the conscientious American decision-makers who deprived the polis of the true images of maimed bodies, broken limbs, desperate souls flying through the air, perhaps to land where the kadhi will intone the principles of the Muslim faith.

Given the absence of a logical explanation for this mosque, the ex cathedra reason is that it is a monument to the American credo of the freedom of religion. But that is surely insincere, at least on the part of the Islamic prayer house sponsors, who are more motivated to slip under the First Amendment protections here than to make them their own anywhere else. Islam in New York would have been just as free 10 blocks away.

In fact, the presence of an Islamic place of prayer at the sight of the human catastrophe of September 11, 2001, will be an insult to the dead. It would be as if Japan were to erect a museum about its delicate treatment of women, and to erect that museum precisely in Nanking, China. Or Germany to establish a series of Goethe Institutes where the Vilna Ghetto and the concentration camp of Maidanek once stood. Or, for that matter, Serbia might be accommodated to construct a monument to its sufferings under the Nazis in Srebrenica where it later murdered 10,000 Bosnians.

I am as much for understanding and reconciliation as the next man. But there are dark places where the only appropriate emotions are anger and grief.



Yeah I can see the point about Americans being annoyed about a Mosque at 'Ground Zero'....seriously...
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Re: Ground Zero mosque defies logic
Reply #2 - Aug 11th, 2010 at 7:47pm
 
"Americans" still think that 9/11 was all about Muslims killing 3000+ "Americans".  It  was more about the state of the USA SECURITY and those that did the job were "Americans" and many of those who died were Aussies, Poms, Kiwis, "Europeans" and others from a variety of different countries.

It was sad, sure. What has happened since? The War on Terrorism is a farce. Have they found Bin Laden yet?  Grin
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Re: Ground Zero mosque defies logic
Reply #3 - Aug 11th, 2010 at 7:51pm
 
They should leave it as a memorial for all those  innocent  REAL martyrs who were murdered by gutless terrorists. Best thing that happened that day was when brave passengers stopped the highjackers from achieving their goal.
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Re: Ground Zero mosque defies logic
Reply #4 - Aug 11th, 2010 at 8:40pm
 


It was sad, sure. What has happened since? The War on Terrorism is a farce.


I presume you are joking

Just a few for you

Bali bombings  1 October 2005  & October 12th 2002
Madrid train attack  20 March 2004
London train and bus attacks 21 July 2005
Mumbai attacks 26 November 2008



Since March 2001 there have been 15812 deadly terror attacks
 
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Re: Ground Zero mosque defies logic
Reply #5 - Aug 11th, 2010 at 8:55pm
 
cockneydoll wrote on Aug 11th, 2010 at 8:40pm:
It was sad, sure. What has happened since? The War on Terrorism is a farce.


I presume you are joking

Just a few for you

Bali bombings  1 October 2005  & October 12th 2002
Madrid train attack  20 March 2004
London train and bus attacks 21 July 2005
Mumbai attacks 26 November 2008



Since March 2001 there have been 15,812 deadly terror attacks
 

And .....

3,956,000 deaths on the roads
500,000 murders
125,000 paedophiles caught .........

I made up the numbers but there are far more important things than whether a Muslim is going to bomb you.  Get real.  If you vote GALP you are asking for more deaths.  Grin

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Re: Ground Zero mosque defies logic
Reply #6 - Aug 11th, 2010 at 9:04pm
 
Look really, did they expect to erect a mosque at ground zero and  thousands of peoples loved ones, friends, relatives traumatised by the tragedy to feel ok about this impertinent insult?



Roll Eyes

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Re: Ground Zero mosque defies logic
Reply #7 - Aug 11th, 2010 at 9:05pm
 
Jee, how are they going to be when the Israelis demolish the mosque on Temple Mount in Jerusalem.
It's coming.
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Re: Ground Zero mosque defies logic
Reply #8 - Aug 11th, 2010 at 9:14pm
 
Before we all get carried away and start thinking this "mosque" is being built on the site where the twin towers once stood; it's not, the planned site is in fact a couple of blocks away.
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Re: Ground Zero mosque defies logic
Reply #9 - Aug 11th, 2010 at 9:34pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 11th, 2010 at 7:33pm:
I think the Americans are being a little oversensitive about this.




Yeah, bloody Americans, typical, tsk... Wait for the generous response from the mullahs when this counter proposal gets up:



MONDAY'S GREGALOGUE: MY NEW GAY BAR
So, the Muslim investors championing the construction of the new mosque near Ground Zero claim it's all about strengthening the relationship between the Muslim and non-Muslim world.

As an American, I believe they have every right to build the mosque - after all, if they buy the land and they follow the law - who can stop them?

Which is, why, in the spirit of outreach, I've decided to do the same thing.

I'm announcing tonight, that I am planning to build and open the first gay bar that caters not only to the west, but also Islamic gay men. To best express my sincere desire for dialogue, the bar will be situated next to the mosque Park51, in an available commercial space.

This is not a joke. I've already spoken to a number of investors, who have pledged their support in this bipartisan bid for understanding and tolerance.

As you know, the Muslim faith doesn't look kindly upon homosexuality, which is why I'm building this bar. It is an effort to break down barriers and reduce deadly homophobia in the Islamic world.

The goal, however, is not simply to open a typical gay bar, but one friendly to men of Islamic faith. An entire floor, for example, will feature non-alcoholic drinks, since booze is forbidden by the faith. The bar will be open all day and night, to accommodate men who would rather keep their sexuality under wraps - but still want to dance.

Bottom line: I hope that the mosque owners will be as open to the bar, as I am to the new mosque. After all, the belief driving them to open up their center near Ground Zero, is no different than mine.

My place, however, will have better music.

For investment information, contact me at dailygut.com


http://www.dailygut.com/

One suggestion for the bar was "HoMohamo"   Grin  Grin

Madhi Gras

Submission

Ram-a-Dan

Ass-Ass-Ins

Jizya

AllahuAk Bar  Cheesy


ANy others?

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« Last Edit: Aug 11th, 2010 at 10:02pm by Soren »  
 
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Re: Ground Zero mosque defies logic
Reply #10 - Aug 11th, 2010 at 9:47pm
 


my cultural insensitivities may arise if a mosque were to arise where my  family were murdered by muslims.
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Re: Ground Zero mosque defies logic
Reply #11 - Aug 11th, 2010 at 9:55pm
 
Yeah, even IF the WTC attacks weren't carried out by Muslim extremists (which if pretty unlikely)...the perception of the average person in America is that it WAS extremists.....so it's a little 'insensitive' to build a Mosque on the site...

Truth or Fiction is irrelevant to the idea.....it's what the 'common' belief is that matters....
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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Amadd
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Re: Ground Zero mosque defies logic
Reply #12 - Aug 12th, 2010 at 8:35am
 
A limited excerpt from a recent "Time" magazine:

The last legal hurdle to an Islamic center near the World Trade Center site has been removed, but bigotry and politics may prove more formidable obstacles. New York City's Landmarks Preservation Commission ruled that a building can be torn down to clear the way for Park 51, a cultural center and mosque. The project's critics range from those who believe Islam was the malevolent force that brought down the towers to opportunistic politicians. Ironically, Imam Feisal...


- you can't read anymore online, but the article goes on to say:

..Abdul Rauf and his wife Daisy Khan, the project's main movers, are precisely the kind of Muslim leaders conservative commentators should welcome: modernists who condemn the death cult of al-Qaeda. ..etc.


This IMO, is what we sorely need to hear from Islamic moderates.
I'm damned sure that I ain't gonna hear it from the likes of Abu, but I'm hopeful that there are more moderates willing to take the reins and set an example for modern Islam.

The mosque being so close to ground zero may be a good thing if done correctly, but I personally feel that it would lend itself far too much to encouragement for the extremist dirka dirkas worldwide.

And after all, you could probably find more within the quran which supports the views of extemist muslims than you could for the views of moderates.


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Re: Ground Zero mosque defies logic
Reply #13 - Aug 12th, 2010 at 8:49am
 
If we look at the counter arguments, muslims were among those killed in the attack, and as even GW Bush said, they were not targetting Islam, but terrorism.

Now if 911 had been the result of a concerted attack by the religious organisation of Islam, then it would be more clear cut.

For example, if the Pope and his Cardinals planned to carry out terrorist attacks on Tel Aviv in retaliation for the Jewish assassination of Christ, then I can understand that  building a Catholic Church on the ruins would be kind of insane, not to mention bad taste.

I guess the rationale is that relatives of the Muslim businessment killed in the WTC would want somewhere to reflect their loss. The Americans are pretty big on religion, so I'd be guessing that they'd also want to built a hand clappers assembly hall there, along with a Synogogue perhaps, and that it would somehow be bigger than the proposed Mosque.

What they should really do is have a multi-faith building for all the Abrahamic faiths and just make sure they put hoses in the toilets and serve Kosher and Halal foods. (Same concept as a coffee machine that serves different types of espresso)

After all, it's basically one religion, albeit one that rears its ugly head whenever there is tragedy in this world.

The question arises, why would they want to bother? The facility would just be desecrated and make life even worse for the surviving relatives of any persuasion.

Keep the religious places away from there. Whatever you do, the Lutherans will continue to say that the Synod Lutherans are all going to hell, that the Muslims are all terrorists and that the Jews.... well we don't criticise the big-noses, do we?   Grin

Good post Amadd. Just what I'd expect from a moderate Indonesian like yourself  Tongue
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« Last Edit: Aug 12th, 2010 at 9:10am by muso »  

...
1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not 
 
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Re: Ground Zero mosque defies logic
Reply #14 - Aug 12th, 2010 at 9:33am
 
Life_goes_on wrote on Aug 11th, 2010 at 9:14pm:
Before we all get carried away and start thinking this "mosque" is being built on the site where the twin towers once stood; it's not, the planned site is in fact a couple of blocks away.



This most salient point, goes unnoticed, and not commented on, but it is surely crucial to the debate.
Is the mosque being built on what is described, and understood as, "Ground Zero", or is it being built somewhere near Ground Zero?

Personally, I wouldn't build a mosque, synagogue, or christian church, anywhere, but I do not object to others building them, I do balk at the fact that these groups evade tax by the special treatment for religion laws they so depend upon, which provides extra money to build these indulgent palaces of idiocy, but that is another issue.

So we need to make sure that we are not just providing another venue for anti-muslim attitudes, under the guise of concern for the dead, because that just demeans the people who may have legitimate issues with aspects of Islam, whilst not seeking to demonise all muslims as quasi terrorists.

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