Australian Politics Forum - Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty

mozzaok

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #90 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 2:03pm

Quote:

I know a family who`s son shook a baby to death as a result of his own drug induced brain damage. This happened quite a few years ago, and the perp isn`t even aware of his crime, due to his self inflicted brain damage. It costs a fortune to keep this thing alive and I just don`t see the point.

Frankly I am a little surprised to see anyone still use such an argument anymore.

It is hidebound nonsense to think that you can apply value judgements about whose life is worth preserving, and whose is not, based upon subjective value assessments like someone having a drug damaged brain.
It is what the whole Master Race philosophy was about, and that did not play out really well did it.

I appreciate the fact that we do have people that do hideous things, due to the fact that they are sick in the head, and if we follow your line of thinking, we just should kill everyone who is sick in the head.

There is the possibility that we will, as a society, get to a point where certain, extremely profound disabilities are considered kinder to euthanise than to artificially support, but the protocols that would need to be put in place before that ever became acceptable, are monumental.

The simple fact is that as a criminal act, someone with reduced capacity to make a conscious moral decision, is far less deserving of receiving the death penalty, than someone with all their faculties.

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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!

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Deborahmac09 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1619	Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty Reply #91 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 2:30pm It may not be an argument against dp aussie, but it is one of the reasons that I do not support dp. I do not have to support it just because the likes of you think that I should. I acknowledge your reasons for supporting it. That is who you are, it is not who I am.
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longweekend58

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #92 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 3:27pm

aussiefree2ride wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 1:25pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 10:21am:

aussiefree2ride wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 7:20am:

To those who oppose the DP. Why should violent criminals, who have forfeited their rights as human beings have money spent on their upkeep that should go towards keeping decent people alive?

Because aussie, things are not always how they seem. The person that you are saying has forfeited their rights as a human being, may not actually be guilty, or there may be extenuating circumstances.
Either everyone has the right to be treated humanely or no one does.

Deborah, as I previously stated, wrongful conviction really isn`t an argument against the DP. To be wrongly convicted of a hideous crime, (the type of crime worthy of the DP) could be more devastating, and cruel without the death penalty, than if the DP was imposed. To be wrongfully convicted, in most cases is a slow death by the worst torture. This emphasises the need for correct legal findings, and the urgency to modernise our hide bound legal systems to this end. The death penalty should only be enforced in the most extreme cases, and when guilt is thoroughly proven.

I know a family who`s son shook a baby to death as a result of his own drug induced brain damage. This happened quite a few years ago, and the perp isn`t even aware of his crime, due to his self inflicted brain damage. It costs a fortune to keep this thing alive and I just don`t see the point.

Why does there have to be a 'point' to keeping someone alive? The right to life is immutable. we dont say a person is unworthy of life or a waste of space or better off dead. that is NOT our choice to make and certinaly not yours.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53184 At my desk.	Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty Reply #93 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 4:09pm None of our rights are immutable when it comes to dispensing justice.
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longweekend58

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #94 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 4:16pm

freediver wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 4:09pm:

None of our rights are immutable when it comes to dispensing justice.

why?

The essence of a right is that it is NOT easily denied. and as the right to life is our most basic and important right, then denying it to anyone is to downgrade or even trivialise it.

but let's be honest here. thats not really your argument. You believe in the death penalty for your own reasons and nothing will change that. You could always articulate a logical argument but I dont expect that.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53184 At my desk.	Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty Reply #95 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 4:37pm You cannot exact justice without denying someone their rights. I oppose the death penalty.
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Andrei.Hicks Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 23818 Carlsbad, CA Gender:	Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty Reply #96 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 4:40pm The death penalty prevents re-offending. 100% of the time. Good enough for me.
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Deborahmac09 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1619	Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty Reply #97 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 4:55pm but it does not stop new offenders Andrei. Also not if the offender has not been caught. Someone else already stated that many killings are spur of the moment.
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gizmo_2655 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16010 South West NSW Gender:	Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty Reply #98 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 5:44pm Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 4:55pm: but it does not stop new offenders Andrei. Also not if the offender has not been caught. Someone else already stated that many killings are spur of the moment. But it does work 100% on a 'case by case' basis....
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White Dove

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #99 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 5:45pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 4:40pm:

The death penalty prevents re-offending.

100% of the time.

Good enough for me.

Capital Punishment was abolished in Australia in 1973 by the Death Penalty Abolishment Act, 1973.

Why would you want to bring it back?

Murdering people who murder people doesn't solve anything. If the families of murder victims need "closure" perhaps they should seek "God"?

Will you be voting GREEN? Roll Eyes

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Deborahmac09

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #100 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 5:47pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 5:44pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 4:55pm:

but it does not stop new offenders Andrei.
Also not if the offender has not been caught.

Someone else already stated that many killings are spur of the moment.

But it does work 100% on a 'case by case' basis....

Semantics, if only life was that simple.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #101 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 5:53pm

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 5:47pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 5:44pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 4:55pm:

but it does not stop new offenders Andrei.
Also not if the offender has not been caught.

Someone else already stated that many killings are spur of the moment.

But it does work 100% on a 'case by case' basis....

Semantics, if only life was that simple.

Well how does 'gaoling' a shop lifter deter the 'next shop lifter'????

How does locking up a rapist/murder/armed robber deter the next one, or for that matter, how does it stop the individual from re-offending after they're released????

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Deborahmac09

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #102 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 5:58pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 5:53pm:

Well how does 'gaoling' a shop lifter deter the 'next shop lifter'????

How does locking up a rapist/murder/armed robber deter the next one, or for that matter, how does it stop the individual from re-offending after they're released????

People have to want to change. A smack on the wrist isn't the answer either. Harsher penalties sure.
It is not up to us to decide that someone has forfeited their human rights, and that they deserve to die. When we do that, we are in danger of becoming like them.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #103 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 6:13pm

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 5:58pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 5:53pm:

Well how does 'gaoling' a shop lifter deter the 'next shop lifter'????

How does locking up a rapist/murder/armed robber deter the next one, or for that matter, how does it stop the individual from re-offending after they're released????

People have to want to change. A smack on the wrist isn't the answer either. Harsher penalties sure.
It is not up to us to decide that someone has forfeited their human rights, and that they deserve to die. When we do that, we are in danger of becoming like them.

Granted, but locking up a 'serial killer' for 15-25 years (as they do here in Australia) doesn't STOP the urges, does it???

If you have a sociopath, aged 20 (with 5 kills)..and you lock them up for 15 years....they get out at age 35....what is the deterant for them NOT to kill again????

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Deborahmac09 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1619	Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty Reply #104 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 6:16pm Life should be life giz, let them live their lives out in solitary.
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