Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 16^th, 2010 at 9:44am:



Deborah....when you get right down to it, ALL penalties....whether the 'Death Peanlty' or imprisonment, or even a 'fine' for that matter are about 'revenge'.

The whole idea behind the 'criminal justice' system is to make offenders 'pay their debt to society'.....paying your debt, is revenge, pure and simple....

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 16^th, 2010 at 6:54pm:


thats a bit simplistic. my speeding fines are not about revenge. nor are prison sentences about revenge and nor shoudl they be. they are about CONSEQUENCES and seeking to deter most people from committing crimes as well as putting dangerous people out of circulation for a time.

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 16^th, 2010 at 7:09pm:


Sure they are...you need to 'repay' society for the action you commit...THAT is revenge....getting back AT you for what you did....

[quote author=gizmo_2655 link=1281336865/60#60 date=1281948876][quote author=Deborahmac09 link=1281336865/45#48 date=1281915852]The whole idea behind the 'criminal justice' system is to make offenders 'pay their debt to society'.....paying your debt, is revenge, pure and simple....
[/quote]

If you owe the bank for your car note and you repay it, is that revenge, or is it the appropriate repaument of that which you owe?

Certainly it is not revenge.

I think we all want folks to get what they deserve in life, in payment for our services, our jobs, as reward for accomplishements, as well as in sanction for our transgressions.

7)  C. S. Lewis:  "According to the Humanitarian theory, to punish a man because he deserves it, and as much as he deserves, is mere revenge, and, therefore, barbarous and immoral. It is maintained that the only legitimate motives for punishing are the desire to deter others by example or to mend the criminal. "

"I believe that the “Humanity” which it claims is a dangerous illusion and disguises the possibility of cruelty and injustice without end. I urge a return to the traditional or Retributive theory not solely, not even primarily, in the interests of society, but in the interests of the criminal."

"The reason is this. The Humanitarian theory removes from Punishment the concept of Desert. But the concept of Desert is the only connecting link between punishment and justice. It is only as deserved or undeserved that a sentence can be just or unjust."

"My contention is that this (Humanitarian) doctrine, merciful though it appears, really means that each one of us, from the moment he breaks the law, is deprived of the rights of a human being."

"Thus when we cease to consider what the criminal deserves and consider only what will cure him or deter others, we have tacitly removed him from the sphere of justice altogether . . .".

" . . . in the process of giving him what he deserved you set an example to others. But take away desert and the whole morality of the punishment disappears. Why, in Heaven’s name, am I to be sacrificed to the good of society in this way?—unless, of course, I deserve it. "

"The punishment of an innocent, that is , an undeserving, man is wicked only if we grant the traditional view that righteous punishment means deserved punishment."

"But to be punished, however severely, because we have deserved it, because we ‘ought to have known better’, is to be treated as a human person made in God’s image."

"This is why I think it essential to oppose the Humanitarian theory of punishment, root and branch, wherever we encounter it. It carries on its front a semblance of mercy which is wholly false. "

" . . . the Humanitarian theory wants simply to abolish Justice and substitute Mercy for it. Mercy, detached from Justice, grows unmerciful. "   The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment C.S. Lewis


8)   C. S. Lewis:  "Some enlightened people would like to banish all conceptions of retribution or desert from their theory of punishment and place its value wholly in the deterrence of others or the reform of the criminal himself.  They do not see that by so doing they render all punishment unjust. What can be more immoral than to inflict suffering on me for the sake of deterring others if I do not deserve it? And if I do deserve it, you are admitting the claims of retribution. "  "The Complete C.S. Lewis", Signature Classics, The Problem of Pain, P407, Harper Collins, 2002


9)  Why do parents punish their children for transgressions? I think it easy to understand sanction of a child, by a parent, is a reflection in love.

They want the child to understand the level of transgression, which is reflected in the degree of sanction (retribution),  that the expected and hoped for result of that sanction is teaching, to encourage sorrow and apology that will be reflected in improved behavior,  that such rehabilitation will result in a better person that will improve the total moral good (rehabilitation and redemption).

Few are so naive as to believe that any or all of these can or will take place in many or most circumstances with criminals within a criminal justice system. It  does, however, recognizes that sanction/retribution is an essential requirement, which has a hoped for restorative and rehabilitative effect.


10)  "Executing a murderer is the only way to adequately express our horror at the taking of an innocent life. Nothing else suffices...A murderer sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole can still laugh, learn and love, listen to music and read, form friendships, and do the thousand-and-one things (mundane and sublime) forever foreclosed to his victims."  Don Feder, Boston Herald Columnist. "McVeigh Makes the Case for Capital Punishment". 21 May 2001

Quote:


When we commit such horror as punishment for a horror someone may or may not have committed, there is something wrong with us. We are damned if you do and damned if we don't.

[quote author=Deborahmac09 link=1281336865/60#63 date=1281950297]actually longweekend, your speeding fines are about raising money.[/quote]

They are about three things.

1. A sanction for violating the social contract
2. A deterrent to speeding
3. Raising money

it is dudly, you might think that one or two innocents is nothing. But I don't.

Yes lets think about all those we save. But it does not work that way.
The death penalty is not a deterrent. many of those who kill don't care if they die.

[quote author=Deborahmac09 link=1281336865/60#72 date=1281965160]many of those who kill don't care if they die.[/quote]

I'll give you suicide bombers, who actually wish to die.

But, about 99.9% of all of those facing the death penalty in the US do everything they can, pre trial, at trial and on appeal to avoid the death penalty and execution.

Life imprisonment is much preferred.