Australian Politics Forum - Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty

gizmo_2655 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16010 South West NSW Gender:	Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty Reply #30 - Aug 9^th, 2010 at 9:42pm freediver wrote on Aug 9^th, 2010 at 9:38pm: So if the world was perfect we wouldn't have any problems? Wouldn't THAT count as a 'trusim'???
Back to top	"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition. It's similar to a strawman fallacy" Bobbythebat IP Logged

aussiefree2ride Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3538	Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty Reply #31 - Aug 9^th, 2010 at 9:53pm freediver wrote on Aug 9^th, 2010 at 9:38pm: So if the world was perfect we wouldn't have any problems? Sadly, we have to deal with seemingly endless imperfections. Some people, by criminnal actions, forefit their "right" to live in a civilised society.
Back to top	IP Logged

gizmo_2655

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 16010
South West NSW
Gender: male

Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #32 - Aug 9^th, 2010 at 10:03pm

aussiefree2ride wrote on Aug 9^th, 2010 at 9:53pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 9^th, 2010 at 9:38pm:

So if the world was perfect we wouldn't have any problems?

Sadly, we have to deal with seemingly endless imperfections. Some people, by criminnal actions, forefit their "right" to live in a civilised society.

Sadly, very true aussie

Back to top

"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

IP Logged

gizmo_2655 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16010 South West NSW Gender:	Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty Reply #33 - Aug 9^th, 2010 at 10:06pm If the world was perfect, there would be NO crime, no injustice and no killings.... Unfortunately...the World is NOT perfect....it's inhabited by people... And people are, almost by definition, imperfect...
Back to top	"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition. It's similar to a strawman fallacy" Bobbythebat IP Logged

Deborahmac09

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 1619

Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #34 - Aug 9^th, 2010 at 10:53pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 9^th, 2010 at 10:06pm:

If the world was perfect, there would be NO crime, no injustice and no killings....

Unfortunately...the World is NOT perfect....it's inhabited by people...
And people are, almost by definition, imperfect...

Especially when some of those said people can just shrug off the murder of innocent persons under the guise of justice. The death penalty has nothing to do with justice, it is vengeance, pure and simple. At least admit that.

Back to top

IP Logged

aussiefree2ride Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3538	Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty Reply #35 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 7:00am If the OP was accurate, which I doubt, this only emphasises the need for the reworking of the justice system. Lives can be, and are ruined by incorect verdicts, even involving much lesser charges. Lawyers, law enforcement agencies, and witnesses / accusers need to be held accountable.
Back to top	IP Logged

chicken_lipsforme

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 7090
Townsville NQ
Gender: male

Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #36 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 7:09am

athos wrote on Aug 9^th, 2010 at 4:54pm:

DNA tests tell us half of all death row inmates in America are innocent

In 1997, Illinois halted executions when DNA testing found 52% of their deathrow inmates were innocent.

Cost
A study released on March 6, 2008 found that in USA taxpayers have paid at least $37.2 million for each of execution both innocent and guilty. Can you believe tax payers are willing to pay that much money to kill an innocent person? pdf link

If the lawyers and do gooders had their way, the cost would be much higher but for differing reasons.
The US love for lawyers and money can only be explained by their seemingly endless court appeals process.
$37.2 million for each 'execution' is laughable, and only in the US does such stupidity exist.
And despite their costly endless appeals process, they can still get so much so very wrong.
It seems to me that the problem isn't the death penalty, it's the evidence used to convict a person is the issue.
So how many innocent inmates are in gaol over there if they can get this so very wrong?
The Saudi's can get the right job done for a fraction of the cost in a fraction of the time, with the same end result.
So, get the evidence right, give them one or two appeals and if there is no new evidence, carry out the sentence.
This rubbish where the guilty linger on death row for twenty plus years is just silly.
One state has it, another doesn't is a very odd occurence in the US and also does not occur elsewhere.
The Americans need to decide whether they support the death penalty or not, and having a foot on both sides of the fence in that country does them no justice.

Back to top

"Another boat, another policy failure from the Howard government"

Julia Gillard
Shadow Health Minister
2003.

IP Logged

Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 41788 Gender:	Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty Reply #37 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 8:08am chicken - one stare having the death penalty and the other not also tends to make more murders happen in the neighbourign statte that does not give the death penalty.
Back to top	Modern Classic Right Wing IP Logged

chicken_lipsforme

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 7090
Townsville NQ
Gender: male

Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #38 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 8:35am

Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 10^th, 2010 at 8:08am:

chicken - one stare having the death penalty and the other not also tends to make more murders happen in the neighbourign statte that does not give the death penalty.

I did read last year in the media of killers kidnapping their victims and driving them across the border to commit there crime there, just in case they get caught.
A silly state of affairs.

Back to top

"Another boat, another policy failure from the Howard government"

Julia Gillard
Shadow Health Minister
2003.

IP Logged

athos Gold Member Online Re-educate barbarians Posts: 6421 Hong Kong Gender:	Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty Reply #39 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 10:26am freediver wrote on Aug 9^th, 2010 at 9:38pm: So if the world was perfect we wouldn't have any problems? That’s true. That’s why it’s better to admit our own imperfection rather than to pretend ideal super humans.
Back to top	Do we need to be always politically correct. In the world of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act. IP Logged

Vanessa

Senior Member

Offline

Ranga Rock Chick

Posts: 301
Somewhere In The Real World
Gender: female

Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #40 - Aug 14^th, 2010 at 3:40pm

There is no need for the death penalty in our society. The death penalty isn't going to deter people from committing crimes, in fact, in the US, the states with the death penalty have a higher rate of murders than the states without the death penalty.

Killing someone doesn't bring the victim back, the victim is still dead, the family still grieves.

Let the scumbags spend the rest of their lives in prison to think about what they have done.

Back to top

I don't care if I'm fat, or if you think my clothes are bad. I can go to sleep at night I'm a good person and I'll get by...

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Online

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 53184
At my desk.

Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #41 - Aug 14^th, 2010 at 4:47pm

aussiefree2ride wrote on Aug 9^th, 2010 at 9:53pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 9^th, 2010 at 9:38pm:

So if the world was perfect we wouldn't have any problems?

Sadly, we have to deal with seemingly endless imperfections. Some people, by criminnal actions, forefit their "right" to live in a civilised society.

So given that the world is not perfect and the courts occasionally make a mistake, and even more occasionally recognise this, does this then become a valid argument against the death penalty? Remember, you started this by saying we should get a perfect legal system rather than getting rid of the death penalty.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

athos

Gold Member

Online

Re-educate barbarians

Posts: 6421
Hong Kong
Gender: male

Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #42 - Aug 14^th, 2010 at 9:12pm

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2010 at 4:47pm:

aussiefree2ride wrote on Aug 9^th, 2010 at 9:53pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 9^th, 2010 at 9:38pm:

So if the world was perfect we wouldn't have any problems?

Sadly, we have to deal with seemingly endless imperfections. Some people, by criminnal actions, forefit their "right" to live in a civilised society.

So given that the world is not perfect and the courts occasionally make a mistake, and even more occasionally recognise this, does this then become a valid argument against the death penalty? Remember, you started this by saying we should get a perfect legal system rather than getting rid of the death penalty.

Again
Is 50% "More occasional" mistake?
I think you should go back to school and study basics of statistics again.

This would be the same if doctors apply medicine that kills half patients, is it allowed.

If someone from your family was prosecuted innocent you wouldn't talk in such cynical way.

50% is not "More occasional" it is unacceptable negligence.

Back to top

Do we need to be always politically correct.
In the world of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

IP Logged

dudleysharp

New Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 34

Death Penalty = More Protection for Innocents
Reply #43 - Aug 15^th, 2010 at 8:23pm

athos wrote on Aug 9^th, 2010 at 4:54pm:

DNA tests tell us half of all death row inmates in America are innocent

Completely absurd.

I suspect you are simply repeating some idiotic anti death penalty site.

In the modern era of the US death penalty, post 1972:

Possibly, 25 death row inmates, or 0.3%, have been released because of solid claims of actual innocence, of those, 9, or less than 0.1%, have been released because of DNA exclusion.

In reality, innocents are more at risk without the death penalty.

Please review these. Use a search.

This site would not let me post links.

"The Death Penalty: More Protection for Innocents"

"The Innocent Executed: Deception & Death Penalty Opponents"

The 130 (now 139) death row "innocents" scam

"A Death Penalty Red Herring: The Inanity and Hypocrisy of Perfection", Lester Jackson Ph.D.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Aug 15^th, 2010 at 8:40pm by dudleysharp »

IP Logged

Vanessa Senior Member Offline Ranga Rock Chick Posts: 301 Somewhere In The Real World Gender:	Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty Reply #44 - Aug 15^th, 2010 at 8:24pm Dudley, it doesn't bother me what information you have. I am thankful that we do not have the death penalty in this country, it us unnecessary, we do not need it, and it is not the answer.
Back to top	I don't care if I'm fat, or if you think my clothes are bad. I can go to sleep at night I'm a good person and I'll get by... IP Logged