Australian Politics Forum - Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty

Equitist

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #150 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 9:28pm

[quote author=Deborahmac09 link=1281336865/135#146 date=1282043025]

Bloody oath! when one of my young 16 year old neighbours can be king hit and die. And the person who did it walk! bloody oath it is not satisfactory.
[/quote]

It is very sad about your 16 year old neighbour, Deborah, however I would be surprised if the person who delivered that "king hit" did so with intent to kill...

When two blokes brawl at the pub or club, or the footy or even in the school yard - they may be violent and people may get badly hurt but rarely is there actual intent to kill.

Even when one or both of them utters words to the effect of "I'm gonna kill you" - they typically mean it as a figure of speech.

Most blokes outgrow this violent and anti-social behaviour - but I agree that we still need to better address such behaviours as a society...

I personally do not condone such violence but the law is fairly clear about the distinctions between assault, accidental/involuntary manslaughter and murder - the latter two of which carry goal sentences (except in extraordinary circumstances).

If malice or premeditated intent could have been established, in the case of your 16 year old neighbour, then the person who inflicted that fatal "king hit" would not have walked!

That's not to say that the assailant doesn't have an anger management problem - but what evidence was there that they intended to kill and what benefit is there in incarcerating (or killing) someone who made a once-off grave mistake!?

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Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!

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Deborahmac09

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #151 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 9:38pm

I know Equitist, but I believe in taking consequences for actions. Excuses of anger and being drunk should not come into it.
Penalties across the board need to be tougher.

There are some real horrid killers out there.
Remember when Andrew mallard was wrongfully convicted of the Murder of Pamela Lawrence? He was sentenced to life. The man was innocent, what is more he was set up.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #152 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 9:40pm

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 7:21pm:

and where do we draw the line to those to receive the death penalty giz?
Repeat offenders, fair enough.Mentally ill ? remember the guy who knew there was something wrong and begged to be left behind. They forced him to go on an outing and he cut this woman's throat. Was it really his fault? or was it those who forced him to go when he knew there was something wrong. The system really stuffed up there. Or don't we listen to those who are mentally ill because we know best?
Accidental killers? It is a dangerous line to draw.

Repeat Offenders...sure. Mentally ill?? if they can't understand what they did..NO same with a 'accidental killers' in that you have a fight and the victim falls and hits their head..again NO...

No jurisdiction that currently applies the death penalty, applies it in any case other than deliberate, premeditated cold-blooded murder....

Serial Killers, Sociopaths, murder for hire, killing a witness to a 'lesser' crime...all these are considered potential DP cases.

Crimes of Passion ( losing your temper), accidental deaths (they fell and hit their head) or Mentally deranged( he/she didn't understand what he/she did) are NOT considered grounds for capital punishment....

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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White Dove

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #153 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 10:23pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 9:40pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 7:21pm:

and where do we draw the line to those to receive the death penalty giz?
Repeat offenders, fair enough.Mentally ill ? remember the guy who knew there was something wrong and begged to be left behind. They forced him to go on an outing and he cut this woman's throat. Was it really his fault? or was it those who forced him to go when he knew there was something wrong. The system really stuffed up there. Or don't we listen to those who are mentally ill because we know best?
Accidental killers? It is a dangerous line to draw.

Repeat Offenders...sure. Mentally ill?? if they can't understand what they did..NO same with a 'accidental killers' in that you have a fight and the victim falls and hits their head..again NO...

No jurisdiction that currently applies the death penalty, applies it in any case other than deliberate, premeditated cold-blooded murder....

Serial Killers, Sociopaths, murder for hire, killing a witness to a 'lesser' crime...all these are considered potential DP cases.

Crimes of Passion ( losing your temper), accidental deaths (they fell and hit their head) or Mentally deranged( he/she didn't understand what he/she did) are NOT considered grounds for capital punishment....

To have Capital Punishment (death penalty) re- installed in Australia would need to be via a Referendum. If you don't like the way the Aussie cops do it, get a Degree in Forensic Science and try it yourself. Go along to the Mortuary and see how you cope with a "normal" death. It looks so easy on TV. Roll Eyes

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dudleysharp

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More respect for victims is required
Reply #154 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 10:43pm

[quote author=Deborahmac09 link=1281336865/135#146 date=1282043025]Bloody oath! when one of my young 16 year old neighbours can be king hit and die. And the person who did it walk! bloody oath it is not satisfactory.[/quote]

I agree. Overwhelming the injustices in the system are based upon the guilty receiving no where near the sanction they deserve, if they receive any sanction at all.

The biggest systemic threats to innocents in the US are that known violent offenders are released on probation, parole or early releases only to harm more innocents.

It is a problem of immense proportions.

I am very sorry for your neighbor and the loved ones left behind.

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dudleysharp

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emotion and law
Reply #155 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 10:50pm

[quote author=Andrei.Hicks link=1281336865/135#147 date=1282043452]That's nonsense.
You accuse supporters of capital punishment of peddling anger and emotive argument. That is no different.

In actual fact my arguments in its favour are completely without emotion.[/quote]

Andrei:

longweekend is a slash and burn troll with no substance.

I think you can make a reasoned assesment for the death penalty. I used to be opposed to the death penalty, but swirched positions based upon fact and reason.

However, human emotion is often a good things. The degree of sanction given for crimes must be based upon the degree of transgression. Emotion is an inevitable ingrediant in considering the horror of some of the crimes.

That is why we have pre-existing laws and fact finders, the judges and juries, who have no connection to the criminal or victim. The goal is not an absense of emotion, but emotion subserviant to the rule of law.

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dudleysharp

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Just hoping that victims and justice get a fair shake.
Reply #156 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 10:54pm

[quote author=White_Dove link=1281336865/135#148 date=1282043559]I think Dudley owns a gun/s, and will use it/them. Are you a septic, Dud? Hope you aren't living in Oz where "guns" are illegal (unless you are a crook). The AFP will be on to you in no time. Remember that the GALP is watching this Forum. ;)[/quote]

Guns are legal for crooks in Oz, but not for law abiding citizens? How odd.

Just hoping that victims and justice get a fair shake.

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dudleysharp New Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 34	Indifference the problem Reply #157 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 10:55pm [quote author=Deborahmac09 link=1281336865/135#149 date=1282044328]Andrei, it is indifference we have a problem with. [/quote] Bullseye!
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gizmo_2655

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #158 - Aug 18^th, 2010 at 7:45am

White Dove wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 10:23pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 9:40pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 7:21pm:

and where do we draw the line to those to receive the death penalty giz?
Repeat offenders, fair enough.Mentally ill ? remember the guy who knew there was something wrong and begged to be left behind. They forced him to go on an outing and he cut this woman's throat. Was it really his fault? or was it those who forced him to go when he knew there was something wrong. The system really stuffed up there. Or don't we listen to those who are mentally ill because we know best?
Accidental killers? It is a dangerous line to draw.

Repeat Offenders...sure. Mentally ill?? if they can't understand what they did..NO same with a 'accidental killers' in that you have a fight and the victim falls and hits their head..again NO...

No jurisdiction that currently applies the death penalty, applies it in any case other than deliberate, premeditated cold-blooded murder....

Serial Killers, Sociopaths, murder for hire, killing a witness to a 'lesser' crime...all these are considered potential DP cases.

Crimes of Passion ( losing your temper), accidental deaths (they fell and hit their head) or Mentally deranged( he/she didn't understand what he/she did) are NOT considered grounds for capital punishment....

To have Capital Punishment (death penalty) re- installed in Australia would need to be via a Referendum. If you don't like the way the Aussie cops do it, get a Degree in Forensic Science and try it yourself. Go along to the Mortuary and see how you cope with a "normal" death. It looks so easy on TV. Roll Eyes

I have no problem with the way the police do their jobs.....
I do have a objection to the inconsistent sentencing in our court system though....

And I have worked in a morgue...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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aussiefree2ride

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #159 - Aug 18^th, 2010 at 9:11am

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 8:22pm:

dudleysharp wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 8:17pm:

aussiefree2ride wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 1:25pm:

Deborah, as I previously stated, wrongful conviction really isn`t an argument against the DP. To be wrongly convicted of a hideous crime, (the type of crime worthy of the DP) could be more devastating, and cruel without the death penalty, than if the DP was imposed. To be wrongfully convicted, in most cases is a slow death by the worst torture. This emphasises the need for correct legal findings, and the urgency to modernise our hide bound legal systems to this end. The death penalty should only be enforced in the most extreme cases, and when guilt is thoroughly proven.

Of course wrongful convicitions are alwasy a concern, but never to the point of banning all or any sanction. All human endeavors are subject to error, just as they are subject to improvement.

And there is the classic cop-out of the pro DP set. they have ZERO concern for wrongful execution. so killing is what is important to them - not justice, because justice would consider a wrongful execution as the height of injustice and a murder in its own right. But that is of no concern as long as someone DIES.

You are a creep.

longweekend58, although I exercised due care in expressing my opinion on this matter, and believe I was reasonably articulate in doing so, you somehow found it not to be beneath yourself to resort to cheap dishonesty by your juvenile attempt at twisting my words.

longweekend58, have you forgotten that the format of this forum allows all readers to compare what I wrote with your cheap and dodgy reply? Do you have the capacity to be embarrassed that your own blathering ravings are exposed for all to see? In your case, and on your behalf, we can all be grateful that stupidity doesn`t attract the DP, because although brain dead as you are, you would also be in anticipation of experiencing the physical variety.

hope this helps

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dudleysharp

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #160 - Aug 19^th, 2010 at 9:12pm

[quote author=aussiefree2ride link=1281336865/150#159 date=1282086706]
longweekend58, Do you have the capacity to be embarrassed that your own blathering ravings are exposed for all to see? In your case, and on your behalf, we can all be grateful that stupidity doesn`t attract the DP, because although brain dead as you are, you would also be in anticipation of experiencing the physical variety.[/quote]

AF:

You're feeding the troll, sadly, as I have previously done, but will do so no longer.

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Jaykaye_09

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #161 - Aug 31^st, 2010 at 2:33pm

Just talking about the DP in another thread, and thought this might of interest to some. Talks a bit about what has come to be known as the 'CSI Effect' on juries, particularly in regards to DNA evidence.

Click on the link for the full story.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/legal-affairs/csi-effect-on-juries-conf...

Quote:

DNA'S relationship with the courts turns 21 this year, but there are two men who won't be turning up for the party.

Farah Jama and Steven Hillier were wrongly convicted by juries on the basis of DNA evidence that became the magic bullet for prosecutors.

Jama's case has become well-known because the Somali migrant spent 16 months in jail for raping a woman in the bathroom of a Melbourne nightclub he had never visited. It was later found that the DNA sample that swayed the jury was contaminated and that the woman, who had been found unconscious, had not been raped at all.

Hillier, a 46-year-old Canberran, was accused of murdering his former wife in 2002 and convicted in 2004. He had to go to the High Court to secure a retrial before being acquitted last month in the ACT Supreme Court. An expert who had backed the accuracy of DNA extracted from a pyjama top recanted when he found the analysis had been "overloaded" with too much material. He also withdrew his previous conclusion that the estranged couple's three children could be ruled out as contributors.

Justice Anthony Besanko said the significance of the DNA evidence to the Crown meant the case had to be proved beyond reasonable doubt. The failure to rule out contamination led to it being excluded from consideration and the case against Hillier, based on motive and opportunity, collapsed...

... A senior public defender in NSW, Andrew Haesler SC, says scientists are confounded by the law's ready embrace of the technology.

"Every scientist you speak to says 'we cannot say a DNA profile is unique'," says Haesler. "It is not unique. It is a statistical construct."

Haesler points to R v S, another rape case involving a DNA link but no other evidence. The prosecution experts said the probability of a person referred to as "S" providing the sample was one in 10 billion. But the inability to exclude a relative led the jury to doubt that the profile was indeed unique.

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If I don't respond to a post directed toward me, it's probably because I've gone offline, not because I'm rude.&&&&Or maybe I don't like you. In which case, sod off. Ta.

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adelcrow Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20133 everywhere Gender:	Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty Reply #162 - Aug 31^st, 2010 at 3:10pm I totally disagree with the death penalty and consider it a barbaric throw back to the dark ages. I would rather see a life sentence in solitary ..and I mean life means life without parole
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locutius Gold Member Offline You can't fight in here! It's the War Room Posts: 1817 Queensland Gender:	Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty Reply #163 - Aug 31^st, 2010 at 3:34pm Death penalty and never to be released options should both be available.
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gizmo_2655

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #164 - Aug 31^st, 2010 at 3:46pm

Jaykaye_09 wrote on Aug 31^st, 2010 at 2:33pm:

Just talking about the DP in another thread, and thought this might of interest to some. Talks a bit about what has come to be known as the 'CSI Effect' on juries, particularly in regards to DNA evidence.

Click on the link for the full story.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/legal-affairs/csi-effect-on-juries-conf...

Quote:

DNA'S relationship with the courts turns 21 this year, but there are two men who won't be turning up for the party.

Farah Jama and Steven Hillier were wrongly convicted by juries on the basis of DNA evidence that became the magic bullet for prosecutors.

Jama's case has become well-known because the Somali migrant spent 16 months in jail for raping a woman in the bathroom of a Melbourne nightclub he had never visited. It was later found that the DNA sample that swayed the jury was contaminated and that the woman, who had been found unconscious, had not been raped at all.

Hillier, a 46-year-old Canberran, was accused of murdering his former wife in 2002 and convicted in 2004. He had to go to the High Court to secure a retrial before being acquitted last month in the ACT Supreme Court. An expert who had backed the accuracy of DNA extracted from a pyjama top recanted when he found the analysis had been "overloaded" with too much material. He also withdrew his previous conclusion that the estranged couple's three children could be ruled out as contributors.

Justice Anthony Besanko said the significance of the DNA evidence to the Crown meant the case had to be proved beyond reasonable doubt. The failure to rule out contamination led to it being excluded from consideration and the case against Hillier, based on motive and opportunity, collapsed...

... A senior public defender in NSW, Andrew Haesler SC, says scientists are confounded by the law's ready embrace of the technology.

"Every scientist you speak to says 'we cannot say a DNA profile is unique'," says Haesler. "It is not unique. It is a statistical construct."

Haesler points to R v S, another rape case involving a DNA link but no other evidence. The prosecution experts said the probability of a person referred to as "S" providing the sample was one in 10 billion. But the inability to exclude a relative led the jury to doubt that the profile was indeed unique.

But neither of those case involved the DP....

I agree DP cases should, and MUST require a higher standard of evidence for conviction....

But in reality, that shouldn't be to hard to arrange...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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