Australian Politics Forum - Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty

gizmo_2655

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #105 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 6:31pm

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 6:16pm:

Life should be life giz, let them live their lives out in solitary.

Yeah that would be nice....but due to the 'dogooder' squad, life is NEVER life..

Isn't it better to execute the REAL nutters (confirmed by evidence and DNA etc) than to run the 'risk' that some bleeding heart wimp will allow them to be released in 15 or 20 years...for 'good behaviour'???

Think about it...the Skaf brothers have had their sentences reduced....by a LOT..

How would you feel if Ivan Milat, (or John Wayne Gacey) had their sentences reduced??....Would YOU be prepared to tell the family of the 'next' victim...that it was ''unfair' to impose a death penalty....so that's just 'tough'????

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Deborahmac09 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1619	Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty Reply #106 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 6:33pm If we can not give harsh penalties for crimes, how much chance do we have of achieving the death penalty?
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gizmo_2655 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16010 South West NSW Gender:	Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty Reply #107 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 6:36pm Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 6:33pm: If we can not give harsh penalties for crimes, how much chance do we have of achieving the death penalty? Oh come on Deb...THAT is the point...
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Deborahmac09

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #108 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 6:41pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 6:36pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 6:33pm:

If we can not give harsh penalties for crimes, how much chance do we have of achieving the death penalty?

Oh come on Deb...THAT is the point...

The point is, we need harsher penalties across the board.

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Equitist

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as gu
Reply #109 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 7:01pm

Some crimes are so hienous that offenders should be deemed too dangerous to ever be released.

This, however, is not an argument for 'harsher' penalties - because punishment is largely ineffectual and more about ancient beliefs in revenge, than preventing further crime.

Granted, some people are so anti-social and dangerous that they should be locked up for life - for the protection of society from them - but the crimes of many others are mere symptoms of bad personal/family circumstances and the emphasis of our so-called 'Criminal Justice System' should be on rehabilitating and preventing reoffending for those sorts of people, as much as possible...

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Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!

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aussiefree2ride

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #110 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 7:02pm

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 2:30pm:

It may not be an argument against dp aussie, but it is one of the reasons that I do not support dp. I do not have to support it just because the likes of you think that I should. I acknowledge your reasons for supporting it. That is who you are, it is not who I am.

Deborah, I don`t know how I gave the impression that I think you should supporty the DP. Absolutely not the case.

best to you & yours

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #111 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 7:12pm

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 6:41pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 6:36pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 6:33pm:

If we can not give harsh penalties for crimes, how much chance do we have of achieving the death penalty?

Oh come on Deb...THAT is the point...

The point is, we need harsher penalties across the board.

YES we do need Harsher Penalties....can you think of any penalty that is 'harsher' than the death penalty????

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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aussiefree2ride

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #112 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 7:19pm

mozzaok wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 2:03pm:

Quote:

I know a family who`s son shook a baby to death as a result of his own drug induced brain damage. This happened quite a few years ago, and the perp isn`t even aware of his crime, due to his self inflicted brain damage. It costs a fortune to keep this thing alive and I just don`t see the point.

Frankly I am a little surprised to see anyone still use such an argument anymore.

It is hidebound nonsense to think that you can apply value judgements about whose life is worth preserving, and whose is not, based upon subjective value assessments like someone having a drug damaged brain.
It is what the whole Master Race philosophy was about, and that did not play out really well did it.

I appreciate the fact that we do have people that do hideous things, due to the fact that they are sick in the head, and if we follow your line of thinking, we just should kill everyone who is sick in the head.

There is the possibility that we will, as a society, get to a point where certain, extremely profound disabilities are considered kinder to euthanise than to artificially support, but the protocols that would need to be put in place before that ever became acceptable, are monumental.

The simple fact is that as a criminal act, someone with reduced capacity to make a conscious moral decision, is far less deserving of receiving the death penalty, than someone with all their faculties.

This has nothing to do with Nazi Germany, or the mas murder of the mentally ill. This is about personal accountability, anyone who takes drugs, alcohol included, must be held accountable or their subsequent actions. The old "I was drunk" or "I was stoned" doesn`t wash as an excuse, never did, never will.

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Deborahmac09

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #113 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 7:21pm

and where do we draw the line to those to receive the death penalty giz?
Repeat offenders, fair enough.Mentally ill ? remember the guy who knew there was something wrong and begged to be left behind. They forced him to go on an outing and he cut this woman's throat. Was it really his fault? or was it those who forced him to go when he knew there was something wrong. The system really stuffed up there. Or don't we listen to those who are mentally ill because we know best?
Accidental killers? It is a dangerous line to draw.

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Deborahmac09

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #114 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 7:23pm

Quote:

This has nothing to do with Nazi Germany, or the mas murder of the mentally ill. This is about personal accountability, anyone who takes drugs, alcohol included, must be held accountable or their subsequent actions. The old "I was drunk" or "I was stoned" doesn`t wash as an excuse, never did, never will

Someone needs to tell the judges and politicians that. Undecided

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longweekend58

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #115 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 7:43pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 4:40pm:

The death penalty prevents re-offending.

100% of the time.

Good enough for me.

Social profiling of potential murderers and pre-emptive execution has the improved effect of preventing INTITIAL offending! So why not that then? You obviously dont put a high premium on innocence or the value of a life so why stop with simple executed convicted (as opposed to guilty) criminals?

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #116 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 7:45pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 6:13pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 5:58pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 5:53pm:

Well how does 'gaoling' a shop lifter deter the 'next shop lifter'????

How does locking up a rapist/murder/armed robber deter the next one, or for that matter, how does it stop the individual from re-offending after they're released????

People have to want to change. A smack on the wrist isn't the answer either. Harsher penalties sure.
It is not up to us to decide that someone has forfeited their human rights, and that they deserve to die. When we do that, we are in danger of becoming like them.

Granted, but locking up a 'serial killer' for 15-25 years (as they do here in Australia) doesn't STOP the urges, does it???

If you have a sociopath, aged 20 (with 5 kills)..and you lock them up for 15 years....they get out at age 35....what is the deterant for them NOT to kill again????

crap argument. find me an example of ONE serial killer who gets only 15 years. they get life and no parole which is fair.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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dudleysharp

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #117 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 7:46pm

[quote author=longweekend58 link=1281336865/75#82 date=1281996578]
Every single link you post is a biased point of view. CREDIBLE studies (ie not these ones) find there is no deterrence factor in the death penalty. You may find it inconceivable and wrong, but that doesnt make it false. Sorry, there is NO deterrence in the death penalty and your protestations to the contrary and CS Lewis quotes dont change that.[/quote]

The studies are credible and most are peer reviewed prior to publication.

If you can be speciifc and tell me the problems you find with each individual study, you could forward those issues to the authors of the studies and see what they say.

Of course the death penalty deters.

All prospects of a negative outcomes deter some. It is a truism.

The CS Lewis writings may have been the opposite of hat you think. He was saying that justice is the reason for the death penalty, that it would be wrong to use any sanction based upon deterrence or cure of the criminal, if they did not deserve the punishment.

True.

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longweekend58

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #118 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 7:47pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 6:31pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 6:16pm:

Life should be life giz, let them live their lives out in solitary.

Yeah that would be nice....but due to the 'dogooder' squad, life is NEVER life..

Isn't it better to execute the REAL nutters (confirmed by evidence and DNA etc) than to run the 'risk' that some bleeding heart wimp will allow them to be released in 15 or 20 years...for 'good behaviour'???

Think about it...the Skaf brothers have had their sentences reduced....by a LOT..

How would you feel if Ivan Milat, (or John Wayne Gacey) had their sentences reduced??....Would YOU be prepared to tell the family of the 'next' victim...that it was ''unfair' to impose a death penalty....so that's just 'tough'????

a thoroughly spurious argument based entirely on conjecture and using particular examples designed to inflame rather than compell the argument.

Milat isnt getting out nor is von Einem. no one is pretending that they ever will.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: Death Penalty kills the innocent as well as guilty
Reply #119 - Aug 17^th, 2010 at 7:49pm

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 6:41pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 6:36pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 6:33pm:

If we can not give harsh penalties for crimes, how much chance do we have of achieving the death penalty?

Oh come on Deb...THAT is the point...

The point is, we need harsher penalties across the board.

Why? because it can be amply proved that once penatlies reach a certain level then increases make no difference at all. Use the examnple of the USA that has vastly hevaier sentences than ours yet a crime rate that is staggeringly higher. and they have the death penalty. increasing penalties DOES NOT WORK. and that isnt my opinion. it is the judical systems opinions and all those who have researched the question.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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