Australian Politics Forum - What is Morality?

Sappho

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Re: What is Morality?
Reply #75 - Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 1:43pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 12:08pm:

Sappho wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 11:35am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2010 at 2:16pm:

Sappho wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2010 at 12:48pm:

Helian, your's is not a better thought experiment. Yours is just a different thought experiment.
...

The first thought experiment though speaks to something completely different. Utility is not a factor in this. So the question remains... What prevents a person for pushing that button?

Better at least in that we're more likely to receive honest replies.

I disagree. Your thought experiment is about numbers that can survive and not so much about morality... except that by number crunching, we humans highlight our social context to which utility is applied. Empathy really doesn't play a significant role in this. If it did, then conflict would arise in the decision making. For example... Do I have a right to actively deny the autonomy of one man in order to save five who would be otherwise dead without my acting?

But when other permutations of the experiment are used (such as you being required to push a fat man onto the track to stop the train hitting the five), it adds another dimension to the thought experiment... How do we feel about being as directly responsible for the death of one as it is possible to be (by way of direct physical contact), even if 5 others would be saved... (i.e. No nice, convenient unconscious victim or the remote killing of someone we cannot see or be compelled to empathise with).

LOL... it is a runaway train Helian. There is no evidence to support the idea of the fat man stopping the train and thus saving the five other lives. Indeed the evidence runs to the contrary. The train runs over the person, or drags that person along with them and does not become derailed because of that.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: What is Morality?
Reply #76 - Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 1:48pm

Sappho wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 1:43pm:

LOL... it is a runaway train Helian. There is no evidence to support the idea of the fat man stopping the train and thus saving the five other lives. Indeed the evidence runs to the contrary. The train runs over the person, or drags that person along with them and does not become derailed because of that.

Come on Sappho, don't play dumb.

The point is to make the subject the direct agent of the cause of death and face to face with the one man which the subject must condemn to death (even if it is to save 5). That adds a whole other edge to the thought experiment... Harder to avoid imagining an empathic response.

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Sappho

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Re: What is Morality?
Reply #77 - Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 1:54pm

Soren wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 12:31pm:

The trouble with these thought experiments is that they leave out the single most important feature of moral action and present scenarios as if moral action was merely a calculation of the currency of moral 'units' the experimenter has invented to show off his supposed cleverness. It betrays the undelying presumption of the experimenter: moral action is calculating.
But of course it isn't.

I disagree. In cases of immediate emergency, utility is the immediate response. The will is towards the greatest number that can survive.

How many times have we heard of the disaster plane being veered away from populated areas by the pilot to ensure the least amount die? It those extremes it really is a numbers game.

Or what of the doctor in third world nations with limited supplies of treatment who must then decide who is most likely to survive if treated? Should they spread the treatment amongst all patients equally and in so doing increase the death rate because those who were most likely to survive did not receive the full treatment? Again, in those extremes it really is a numbers game.

In extremes we immediately calculate the best course of action that will ensure the greatest possible numbers that can survive.

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Sappho

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Re: What is Morality?
Reply #78 - Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 1:58pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 1:48pm:

Sappho wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 1:43pm:

LOL... it is a runaway train Helian. There is no evidence to support the idea of the fat man stopping the train and thus saving the five other lives. Indeed the evidence runs to the contrary. The train runs over the person, or drags that person along with them and does not become derailed because of that.

Come on Sappho, don't play dumb.

The point is to make the subject the direct agent of the cause of death and face to face with the one man which the subject must condemn to death (even if it is to save 5). That adds a whole other edge to the thought experiment... Harder to avoid imagining an empathic response.

I'm not playing dumb, I am appealing to common sense. Common sense dictates that pushing the fat man in front of the runaway train will not save the five others... rather 6 die as a result of those actions.

If you want to engage the person in the morality of the situation, then use the example of the doctor with limited treatments where he must choose who will get those treatments and in so doing who will die for lack of treatment.

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Soren

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Re: What is Morality?
Reply #79 - Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 2:00pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 12:43pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 12:31pm:

It betrays the undelying presumption of the experimenter: moral action is calculating.
But of course it isn't.

True. It's arising is pre-rational and immediate. Which is why, when it comes to thought experiments, they're better when they allow for one to imagine an interaction with another sentient being as opposed to the pushing of a button causing an action unexperienced.

I don't think morality is pre-rational. Interaction is the key - moral action is about relationships, not equations. In thois sense it is closer to aesthetic judgement than to scientific claculation.

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: What is Morality? Reply #80 - Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 2:06pm Soren wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 2:00pm: I don't think morality is pre-rational. Really? You've never found yourself empathising with someone in pain (as opposed to consciously choosing to empathise) ?
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: What is Morality?
Reply #81 - Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 2:09pm

Sappho wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 1:58pm:

I'm not playing dumb, I am appealing to common sense. Common sense dictates that pushing the fat man in front of the runaway train will not save the five others... rather 6 die as a result of those actions.

Well, then, let's say that by pushing the fat man onto the tracks, the track-bound vehicle would kill the man but be derailed, thus saving the lives of 5 others. However, you must look the fat man in the eye as you push him onto the tracks. How do you feel about being the agent of his death under those circumstances.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: What is Morality? Reply #82 - Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 2:11pm NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 2:06pm: Soren wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 2:00pm: I don't think morality is pre-rational. Really? You've never found yourself empathising with someone in pain (as opposed to consciously choosing to empathise) ? Really. I may have empathised but never moralised with someone in pain.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: What is Morality?
Reply #83 - Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 2:16pm

Soren wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 2:11pm:

Really. I may have empathised but never moralised with someone in pain.

So a defense of temporary insanity for an impulsive crime committed against the agent of the cause of pain would not be allowed in your world because the perpetrator must in all cases have made a conscious moral judgement and not acted pre-rationally?

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Sappho

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Re: What is Morality?
Reply #84 - Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 2:25pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 2:09pm:

Sappho wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 1:58pm:

I'm not playing dumb, I am appealing to common sense. Common sense dictates that pushing the fat man in front of the runaway train will not save the five others... rather 6 die as a result of those actions.

Well, then, let's say that by pushing the fat man onto the tracks, the track-bound vehicle would kill the man but be derailed, thus saving the lives of 5 others. However, you must look the fat man in the eye as you push him onto the tracks. How do you feel about being the agent of his death under those circumstances.

Yes, yes... and let's say that the tracks are made of gold studded with diamonds.....

Really Helian, as I said before, reality does not support the idea of a man derailing a train if run over by it. If it did, the news would be full of trains derailed by suicide victims. Do you know how many people die per week from being run over by trains in Melbourne alone?... approx 5 to 14 per week. Yet none of them derail the trains... go figure.

Quote:

If you want to engage the person in the morality of the situation, then use the example of the doctor with limited treatments where he must choose who will get those treatments and in so doing who will die for lack of treatment

You said nothing about this even though you demand that the agent of morality look them in the eye. Well the doctor is looking them in the eye when he is deciding who will be saved by the treatment and who will die for lack of treatment.

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Amadd Gold Member Offline Mo Posts: 6217	Re: What is Morality? Reply #85 - Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 2:34pm Every war, past present and future, is of an economic nature. Is that immoral? We are all whores, it's just the price that is to be determined. Ergo: Morality depends wholly upon price. Sound right? Why not?i
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Soren

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Re: What is Morality?
Reply #86 - Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 2:37pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 2:16pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 2:11pm:

Really. I may have empathised but never moralised with someone in pain.

So a defense of temporary insanity for an impulsive crime committed against the agent of the cause of pain would not be allowed in your world because the perpetrator must in all cases have made a conscious moral judgement and not acted pre-rationally?

Well, if you put it like that then empathy and morality must be the same thing. And criminal law. And psychiatry. ANd whatever else you want to toss into the mix.
Morality then, to quote Woody Allen, is like aything else.

"The issue is always fascism".

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: What is Morality? Reply #87 - Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 3:01pm Soren wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 2:37pm: Well, if you put it like that then empathy and morality must be the same thing. Not the same thing but is it not common to feel (without the need to necessarily intellectualise it) a sense of wrongness when you witness the unearned suffering of another?
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: What is Morality?
Reply #88 - Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 3:05pm

Sappho wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 2:25pm:

Yes, yes... and let's say that the tracks are made of gold studded with diamonds.....

Really Helian, as I said before, reality does not support the idea of a man derailing a train if run over by it. If it did, the news would be full of trains derailed by suicide victims. Do you know how many people die per week from being run over by trains in Melbourne alone?... approx 5 to 14 per week. Yet none of them derail the trains... go figure.

Quote:

If you want to engage the person in the morality of the situation, then use the example of the doctor with limited treatments where he must choose who will get those treatments and in so doing who will die for lack of treatment

You said nothing about this even though you demand that the agent of morality look them in the eye. Well the doctor is looking them in the eye when he is deciding who will be saved by the treatment and who will die for lack of treatment.

Would the doctor be required to push the unlucky ones into a body crusher or bash them to death with a club, or does he have the "luxury" of just not turning up at the bedside of the condemned?

It's a much harder decision when the subject must interact with the victim to cause his death as opposed to being able to do a runner.

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Soren

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Re: What is Morality?
Reply #89 - Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 3:49pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 3:01pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 2:37pm:

Well, if you put it like that then empathy and morality must be the same thing.

Not the same thing but is it not common to feel (without the need to necessarily intellectualise it) a sense of wrongness when you witness the unearned suffering of another?

Morality is not about how you feel - even as you have feelings when acting morally.

Pitying unearned suffering doe not necessarily correlate to moral wrongness - unless you attribute morality to the universe and believe, with the hindus, that every kind of suffering is earned.

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