Sappho wrote on Sep 8^th, 2010 at 1:31pm:

In this scenario, you’re not a soldier compelled to shoot to kill or be shot at and killed, so you're not in a position to transfer responsibility for your actions to the state.

Sappho wrote on Sep 8^th, 2010 at 1:31pm:

I said humans have a greater capacity to suffer… Awareness of one’s inevitable death being a uniquely human way of suffering including human awareness of one's inevitable decline.

Sappho wrote on Sep 8^th, 2010 at 1:31pm:

All humans have the capacity to contemplate their mortality and all functioning human minds have a very real sense of mortality. Even the religious betray their awareness of death’s finality when, in a moment of unselfconscious diminished artifice, they speak of the sensibilities of the dead in the past tense.

Sappho wrote on Sep 8^th, 2010 at 1:31pm:

That’s true. Like we’re all born with an instinct and the faculty for speech, but not such that this alone will guarantee we will inevitably become great communicators.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 7:29am:


So you are coming to terms with the notion of the morality in causing death being a case by case application. It seems that you concede at least that soldiers are not wrong for the killing they cause. I did not claim to be the soldier by the way.

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If humans are aware of their mortality, why are they not suffering? Why do they plan for the future which is uncertain, since death is inevitable? I do not see suffering due to the inevitability of death amongst the mortal humans. Unless you mean to claim that our grief expressed for the loss of loved ones to death is the measure of our knowing mortality.

Elephants grieve and grieve quite profoundly. They visit the grave yard of their loved ones and grieve before moving on. Other elephants in the group not so affected because they were not so close to the one that is dead, stand back allowing those closest to grieve the loss to death of those they have loved.

Why is an elephants suffering less than a humans?

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All humans? I don't think so Helian. Surely you mean many humans? Very young children are human and cannot contemplate their mortality. Those humans born with significant intellectual disabilities cannot contemplate their mortality. Those humans who subsequently become significantly intellectually disabled through accidents, dementia or profound mental illness cannot contemplate their mortality. Those three categories alone represent a very large minority who cannot contemplate mortality.

Is this significant minority of humans less worthy than those elephants who grieve for the dead?

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That's not true. When speaking of memories, the dead are referred to in the past tense, however, when speaking of the present the dead are referred to in the present tense. i.e. "He IS at peace now in heaven." or, "I hope my husband comes to take me to heaven when it is my time."

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We do not know enough about the human brain to claim as yet that there is a moral component in the same sense that there is a language component. We can talk about our capacity to reason which is the function of the frontal lobe. I would suggest that morality is a reflection of our capacity to reason.

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 1:30pm:

Never suggested that the moral valency of an action causing death couldn't vary on a case by case basis. My question was could you, as Sappho the average Joette, not Sappho the imaginary cop, soldier, doctor push someone to their death (even if it were to save 5)... At the moment of that act as you interacted with your victim, would you sense an inherent wrongness of the act, even if you could later justify your action by its utility.

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 1:30pm:

Ah we're touching on the first great (noble) truth of Buddhism "All life is suffering" or as M. Scott Peck opened with in his classic, The Road Less Travelled - "Life is difficult".

If you haven't ever perceived that suffering... Grab a flagon and have a deep and meaningful with some friends / acquaintances...

But then

"Suffering is the consequence of struggle,
Struggle, the price of challenge,
Challenge, the precondition for a sense of value...
From value, comes meaning"

If you're not willing to suffer, you'll never know meaning.

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 1:30pm:

Yes not all humans are capable of fully contemplating their mortality... Children will acquire that faculty, those suffering dementia did...

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 1:30pm:

And when a significant event occurs, in a moment of unselfconscious expression, the line often goes "I wish Mum/Dad/____ were here to see this, they would have loved it", or "Thank God Mum/Dad/_____ aren't alive to see this".

What is Morality???

At 1st instance ( and without having read this topic in its entirety ) I'd say morality is just another arbitrary social construct whose barriers constantly shift over time and space.

If you were expecting something more comprehensive and possibly even nerdy ---> TOUGH!

Oh and here are 2 more words for you to think about! Ockham's Razor .. smirk