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Enlighten me, Why do you want an ETS (Read 11534 times)
gizmo_2655
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Re: Enlighten me, Why do you want an ETS
Reply #60 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 5:05pm
 
skippy. wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 12:27pm:
This thread like most started by Labornever are just pure fantasy.
Labor dont even intend on doing anything until 2013, so its a nothing thread, which is very unfortunate, as I, LIKE THE MAJORITY OF AUSSIES  believe we need an ETS, and we need it NOW.



NO skippy...Kevin Rudd said Labor doesn't 'intend to do anything until 2013'....However Rudd is NO longer in charge....

For all we know...Gillard 'might' want to bring the ETS back tomorrow....
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Enlighten me, Why do you want an ETS
Reply #61 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 5:10pm
 
laborfornever wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 2:47pm:
again pure fanatsy on the buy food from closer to home???


Almost all farm produce is trucked to a market setup then purchased by large stores and in many instanced trucked right back to the town that grew it.

Most bananas go from Nth Qld to Brisbane then back to Nth Qld. Do some research.


Ok I ask this.

How much money would you spend to cut you living expenses by .4%??

would you change the way you have to do things if it coists you 5% of your income to save that .4%


Thats what it boild down to and given India and China will emitt more in 12 hours than we save in a full year.

Tell me what is the point?????

All I have heard is feel good must be seen to do something, when the actuall benefit from being seen to be doing something at a massive cost gives a net benefit to the climate of .4% which in the schemes of things is nothing.



Give it up labor4never.....they've drunk the coolaid....They really  can't see the cost to us through their 'rose-coloured' glasses....
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It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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Re: Enlighten me, Why do you want an ETS
Reply #62 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 5:33pm
 
It would make more sense to have a carbon tax.  Europe demonstrated how easy it was for corporations to weasel out of an ETS. As a result, Kyoto accomplished nothing. The world went backwards.

If necessary, keep the Emissions Intensive Trade Exposed  scheme , and gradually phase it out as renewable energy becomes cheaper.

The emphasis needs to be on making renewable energy cheaper to maximise the uptake.
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Enlighten me, Why do you want an ETS
Reply #63 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 5:56pm
 
muso wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 5:33pm:
It would make more sense to have a carbon tax.  Europe demonstrated how easy it was for corporations to weasel out of an ETS. As a result, Kyoto accomplished nothing. The world went backwards.

If necessary, keep the Emissions Intensive Trade Exposed  scheme , and gradually phase it out as renewable energy becomes cheaper.

The emphasis needs to be on making renewable energy cheaper to maximise the uptake.


No muso, it makes MORE sense to have an incentive system to 'encourage' the change over to renewable energies.....

After all 'You catch more flys with honey than with vinegar'....

Bonuses work far better than penalties...
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It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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Re: Enlighten me, Why do you want an ETS
Reply #64 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 9:24pm
 
Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 2:11pm:
A liitle cnfusion perhaps,it was a coilition member who used bullshit but in the context of describing his own parties policy, who I here you ask, well the only one with courage of his convictions of course a MR Turnbull

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/abbotts-climate-change-policy-is-bullshit...

While a shadow minister, Tony Abbott, was never afraid of speaking bluntly in a manner that was at odds with Coalition policy.

So as I am a humble backbencher I am sure he won't complain if I tell a few home truths about the farce that the Coalition's policy, of lack of policy, on climate change has descended into.

First, lets get this straight. You cannot cut emissions without a cost. To replace dirty coal fired power stations with cleaner gas fired ones, or renewables like wind let alone nuclear power or even coal fired power with carbon capture and storage is all going to cost money.
Advertisement: Story continues below

To get farmers to change the way they manage their land, or plant trees and vegetation all costs money.

Somebody has to pay.

So any suggestion that you can dramatically cut emissions without any cost is, to use a favourite term of Mr Abbott, "bullshit." Moreover he knows it.

The whole argument for an emissions trading scheme as opposed to cutting emissions via a carbon tax or simply by regulation is that it is cheaper - in other words electricity prices will rise by less to achieve the same level of emission reductions.

The term you will see used for this is "least cost abatement".

It is not possible to criticise the new Coalition policy on climate change because it does not exist. Mr Abbott apparently knows what he is against, but not what he is for.

Second, as we are being blunt, the fact is that Tony and the people who put him in his job do not want to do anything about climate change. They do not believe in human caused global warming. As Tony observed on one occasion "climate change is crap" or if you consider his mentor, Senator Minchin, the world is not warming, its cooling and the climate change issue is part of a vast left wing conspiracy to deindustrialise the world.

Now politics is about conviction and a commitment to carry out those convictions. The Liberal Party is currently led by people whose conviction on climate change is that it is "crap" and you don't need to do anything about it. Any policy that is announced will simply be a con, an environmental figleaf to cover a determination to do nothing. After all, as Nick Minchin observed, in his view the majority of the Party Room do not believe in human caused global warming at all. I disagree with that assessment, but many people in the community will be excused for thinking the leadership ballot proved him right.

Remember Nick Minchin's defense of the Howard Government's ETS was that the Government was panicked by the polls and therefore didn't really mean it.

Tony himself has in just four or five months publicly advocated the blocking of the ETS, the passing of the ETS, the amending of the ETS and if the amendments were satisfactory passing it, and now the blocking of it.

His only redeeming virtue in this remarkable lack of conviction is that every time he announced a new position to me he would preface it with "Mate, mate, I know I am a bit of a weather vane on this, but....."

Third, there is a major issue of integrity at stake here and Liberals should reflect very deeply on it. We have an Opposition whose current leadership dismisses the Howard Government's ETS policy as being just a political ploy. We have an Opposition Leader who has in the space of a few months held every possible position on the issue, each one contradicting the position he expressed earlier. And finally we have an Opposition which negotiated amendments to the Rudd Government's ETS, then reached agreement on those amendments and then, a week later, reneged on the agreement.

Many Liberals are rightly dismayed that on this vital issue of climate change we are not simply without a policy, without any prospect of having a credible policy but we are now without integrity. We have given our opponents the irrefutable, undeniable evidence that we cannot be trusted.

Not that anyone would doubt it, but I will be voting for the ETS legislation when it returns in February and if my colleagues have any sense they will do so as well


The more I see from Turnbull, the more I like him. It is a great shame he lost the coalition leadership. It would have made this election very interesting. I would have been voting liberal.
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Dsmithy70
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Re: Enlighten me, Why do you want an ETS
Reply #65 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 9:34pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 9:24pm:
Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 2:11pm:
A liitle cnfusion perhaps,it was a coilition member who used bullshit but in the context of describing his own parties policy, who I here you ask, well the only one with courage of his convictions of course a MR Turnbull

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/abbotts-climate-change-policy-is-bullshit...

While a shadow minister, Tony Abbott, was never afraid of speaking bluntly in a manner that was at odds with Coalition policy.

So as I am a humble backbencher I am sure he won't complain if I tell a few home truths about the farce that the Coalition's policy, of lack of policy, on climate change has descended into.

First, lets get this straight. You cannot cut emissions without a cost. To replace dirty coal fired power stations with cleaner gas fired ones, or renewables like wind let alone nuclear power or even coal fired power with carbon capture and storage is all going to cost money.
Advertisement: Story continues below

To get farmers to change the way they manage their land, or plant trees and vegetation all costs money.

Somebody has to pay.

So any suggestion that you can dramatically cut emissions without any cost is, to use a favourite term of Mr Abbott, "bullshit." Moreover he knows it.

The whole argument for an emissions trading scheme as opposed to cutting emissions via a carbon tax or simply by regulation is that it is cheaper - in other words electricity prices will rise by less to achieve the same level of emission reductions.

The term you will see used for this is "least cost abatement".

It is not possible to criticise the new Coalition policy on climate change because it does not exist. Mr Abbott apparently knows what he is against, but not what he is for.

Second, as we are being blunt, the fact is that Tony and the people who put him in his job do not want to do anything about climate change. They do not believe in human caused global warming. As Tony observed on one occasion "climate change is crap" or if you consider his mentor, Senator Minchin, the world is not warming, its cooling and the climate change issue is part of a vast left wing conspiracy to deindustrialise the world.

Now politics is about conviction and a commitment to carry out those convictions. The Liberal Party is currently led by people whose conviction on climate change is that it is "crap" and you don't need to do anything about it. Any policy that is announced will simply be a con, an environmental figleaf to cover a determination to do nothing. After all, as Nick Minchin observed, in his view the majority of the Party Room do not believe in human caused global warming at all. I disagree with that assessment, but many people in the community will be excused for thinking the leadership ballot proved him right.

Remember Nick Minchin's defense of the Howard Government's ETS was that the Government was panicked by the polls and therefore didn't really mean it.

Tony himself has in just four or five months publicly advocated the blocking of the ETS, the passing of the ETS, the amending of the ETS and if the amendments were satisfactory passing it, and now the blocking of it.

His only redeeming virtue in this remarkable lack of conviction is that every time he announced a new position to me he would preface it with "Mate, mate, I know I am a bit of a weather vane on this, but....."

Third, there is a major issue of integrity at stake here and Liberals should reflect very deeply on it. We have an Opposition whose current leadership dismisses the Howard Government's ETS policy as being just a political ploy. We have an Opposition Leader who has in the space of a few months held every possible position on the issue, each one contradicting the position he expressed earlier. And finally we have an Opposition which negotiated amendments to the Rudd Government's ETS, then reached agreement on those amendments and then, a week later, reneged on the agreement.

Many Liberals are rightly dismayed that on this vital issue of climate change we are not simply without a policy, without any prospect of having a credible policy but we are now without integrity. We have given our opponents the irrefutable, undeniable evidence that we cannot be trusted.

Not that anyone would doubt it, but I will be voting for the ETS legislation when it returns in February and if my colleagues have any sense they will do so as well


The more I see from Turnbull, the more I like him. It is a great shame he lost the coalition leadership. It would have made this election very interesting. I would have been voting liberal.


Yes me too freediver, in my personal opinion the Liberals would romp in if Turnbull was leading and Australia would be miles ahead.
The truest test of this is how much the righties like to put him down,
"not a team player","his way or the highway" are regular phrases used to describe him.He will in the end drag the Liberals back to the centre,kicking and screaming maybe but none the less back they will come after Tony's drubbing.
Face it the man doesn't need to work or could earn millions more in the private sector yet where is he, in the thick of political debate taking on the Labor party and a good proportion of his own, he's there for the country nothing else.
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Re: Enlighten me, Why do you want an ETS
Reply #66 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 9:49pm
 
Quote:
I would have been voting liberal.

Quote:
Yes me too freediver


Who are you trying to convince?  Grin

But considering the state of Labor with just changing the face at the helm then it might not be unheard of for the convictionless voter
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Re: Enlighten me, Why do you want an ETS
Reply #67 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 9:58pm
 
Cyberman wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 9:49pm:
Quote:
I would have been voting liberal.

Quote:
Yes me too freediver


Who are you trying to convince?  Grin

But considering the state of Labor with just changing the face at the helm then it might not be unheard of for the convictionless voter


I'm hardly a convictionless voter, Labor esposed those convictions last election and have failed to deliver.
Tony on the otherhand has convictions I don't want or believe in.
So for me it's a choice between the lesser of 2 evils although BOTH major parties will be last on my ballot paper labor 2nd last, liberals last and yes I do vote below the line allocate preferences as I wish.
Greens and independants will benefit from my ballot this year.
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Re: Enlighten me, Why do you want an ETS
Reply #68 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 10:02pm
 
Quote:
Greens and independants will benefit from my ballot this year.


Labor thanks you for the vote  Wink
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Re: Enlighten me, Why do you want an ETS
Reply #69 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 10:04pm
 
Quote:
Enlighten me, Why do you want an ETS


So that we can put a price on polluting the atmosphere.

Our atmosphere is not an infinite waste dump for toxic gases.
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Re: Enlighten me, Why do you want an ETS
Reply #70 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 10:05pm
 
Cyberman wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 10:02pm:
Quote:
Greens and independants will benefit from my ballot this year.


Labor thanks you for the vote  Wink


Yes I know that will be the result in the end and I'm not happy about that Angry
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REBELLION is not what most people think it is.
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Re: Enlighten me, Why do you want an ETS
Reply #71 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 10:08pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 10:04pm:
Quote:
Enlighten me, Why do you want an ETS


So that we can put a price on polluting the atmosphere.

Our atmosphere is not an infinite waste dump for toxic gases.


Why should we hamstring our industry when our emissions are a minute fraction of total emissions?
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Re: Enlighten me, Why do you want an ETS
Reply #72 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 10:22pm
 

its a tax on air, to support gillardsw big hot air govt with talkfests for the cretins
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Re: Enlighten me, Why do you want an ETS
Reply #73 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 10:25pm
 
Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 10:05pm:
Cyberman wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 10:02pm:
Quote:
Greens and independants will benefit from my ballot this year.


Labor thanks you for the vote  Wink


Yes I know that will be the result in the end and I'm not happy about that Angry

But you will happily go and tick the Greens box anyway? I thought you voted strategically?
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Re: Enlighten me, Why do you want an ETS
Reply #74 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 10:29pm
 
Cyberman wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 10:25pm:
Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 10:05pm:
Cyberman wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 10:02pm:
Quote:
Greens and independants will benefit from my ballot this year.


Labor thanks you for the vote  Wink


Yes I know that will be the result in the end and I'm not happy about that Angry

But you will happily go and tick the Greens box anyway? I thought you voted strategically?

Like I said the lesser of 2 evils I also said Greens and EVERY other party before those 2(except the religious nutters).
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REBELLION is not what most people think it is.
REBELLION is when you turn off the TV & start educating & thinking for yourself.
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