Australian Politics Forum - Re: Climate Science

Ziggy

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Re: Climate Science
Reply #150 - Aug 6^th, 2010 at 4:40pm

Climate fluctuates with energy imbalances. Imbalances may occur from a number of factors and have occurred throughout our planet's history. If you can look at various factors and determine an imbalance of energy, then you will know that the climate will change, otherwise you are saying that energy imbalance doesn't cause change. If that's the case then you have no explanation for past climate changes.

The imbalance from CO2 has been studied and the sensitivity of our climate to it has been estimated from different studies. Scientists have determined that there is a net positive energy imbalance has been caused by CO2. The CO2 that has tipped us into this situation has been generated by human beings. This will cause global temperatures to rise and with it various consequences for climate.

To say that climate systems are too powerful for human beings to influence them is not true. Human beings have caused an energy imbalance and climate is responding. If you think no such imbalance has occurred because of CO2, what's your evidence, Gizmo?

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Climate Science
Reply #151 - Aug 6^th, 2010 at 6:14pm

Paella wrote on Aug 6^th, 2010 at 3:29pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 4^th, 2010 at 3:40pm:

I'm 'anti-AGW' too....I don't think that humans have enough 'power' to out do Mother Nature....

The natural, inbuilt climatic systems are STILL far more powerful than anything humans can manage to produce....

Here's a word for you gizmo:

Equilibrium

Look it up some time.

Maybe YOU should look it up Paella???

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Climate Science
Reply #152 - Aug 6^th, 2010 at 6:16pm

Ziggy wrote on Aug 6^th, 2010 at 4:40pm:

Climate fluctuates with energy imbalances. Imbalances may occur from a number of factors and have occurred throughout our planet's history. If you can look at various factors and determine an imbalance of energy, then you will know that the climate will change, otherwise you are saying that energy imbalance doesn't cause change. If that's the case then you have no explanation for past climate changes.

The imbalance from CO2 has been studied and the sensitivity of our climate to it has been estimated from different studies. Scientists have determined that there is a net positive energy imbalance has been caused by CO2. The CO2 that has tipped us into this situation has been generated by human beings. This will cause global temperatures to rise and with it various consequences for climate.

To say that climate systems are too powerful for human beings to influence them is not true. Human beings have caused an energy imbalance and climate is responding. If you think no such imbalance has occurred because of CO2, what's your evidence, Gizmo?

Gee Ziggy...could it be that Co2 is a 'required' chemical in the food chain??? And is also the ONE thing that life cannot exist without???

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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gizmo_2655 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16010 South West NSW Gender:	Re: Climate Science Reply #153 - Aug 6^th, 2010 at 6:48pm If you told me that Methane was the cause of Global Warming...I'd probably agree with you.. But if you tell me that Co2 is causing damge to environment...then you might just as well say that Hydrogen Dioxide is an environmental poison/pollutant...I wouldn't believe THAT either...
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Ziggy

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Re: Climate Science
Reply #154 - Aug 6^th, 2010 at 7:21pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 6^th, 2010 at 6:16pm:

Ziggy wrote on Aug 6^th, 2010 at 4:40pm:

Climate fluctuates with energy imbalances. Imbalances may occur from a number of factors and have occurred throughout our planet's history. If you can look at various factors and determine an imbalance of energy, then you will know that the climate will change, otherwise you are saying that energy imbalance doesn't cause change. If that's the case then you have no explanation for past climate changes.

The imbalance from CO2 has been studied and the sensitivity of our climate to it has been estimated from different studies. Scientists have determined that there is a net positive energy imbalance has been caused by CO2. The CO2 that has tipped us into this situation has been generated by human beings. This will cause global temperatures to rise and with it various consequences for climate.

To say that climate systems are too powerful for human beings to influence them is not true. Human beings have caused an energy imbalance and climate is responding. If you think no such imbalance has occurred because of CO2, what's your evidence, Gizmo?

Gee Ziggy...could it be that Co2 is a 'required' chemical in the food chain??? And is also the ONE thing that life cannot exist without???

Well, Gizmo, I suppose you're saying that Industrialisation has had no impact on Co2 levels and what's come from there hasn't had anything to do with the energy imbalance. I'd hate to tell you that the IPCC would disagree with you-pre and post Climategate( exonerated) based on PEER reviewed papers.

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« Last Edit: Aug 6^th, 2010 at 7:28pm by Ziggy »

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Ziggy

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Re: Climate Science
Reply #155 - Aug 6^th, 2010 at 7:26pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 6^th, 2010 at 6:48pm:

If you told me that Methane was the cause of Global Warming...I'd probably agree with you..

But if you tell me that Co2 is causing damge to environment...then you might just as well say that Hydrogen Dioxide is an environmental poison/pollutant...I wouldn't believe THAT either...

Yes, there are other greenhouse gases that don't help but CO2 , as far as I'm aware is the main driver that's been identified. And it has caused global warming precisely by the greenhouse effect and positive feedback loops. For example, causing more water vapour to be in the air- which in itself is a powerful greehhouse gas. The cloud formation which acts to negate the heating somewhat has been found not to sufficiently decrease the heat gain.

You might also like to look here for more details which might satisfy your scepticism:

http://www.skepticalscience.com/climate-change-little-ice-age-medieval-warm-period.htm

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muso

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Re: Climate Science
Reply #156 - Aug 6^th, 2010 at 7:52pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 6^th, 2010 at 12:22pm:

muso wrote on Aug 6^th, 2010 at 8:23am:

OK. I'll start on the weekend when I don't have to put up with all these stupid Windows hangups. We'll start with William Herschel and the other important discovery he made in 1800- that heat energy is transferred predominantly in the Infrared. Then we'll look at Infrared radiation as it applies to the Earth and Sun.

You don't need to start out that basically....

I have a good grounding in general science (slightly better in biology).
I'm quite well acquainted with the electro-magnetic spectrum and infrared radiation....
I should be, after all I learned about 30+ years ago in high school ...

- but you don't understand the basics of the greenhouse effect, which is why we should start at the beginning.

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muso

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Re: Climate Science
Reply #157 - Aug 6^th, 2010 at 7:57pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 6^th, 2010 at 6:48pm:

If you told me that Methane was the cause of Global Warming...I'd probably agree with you..

But if you tell me that Co2 is causing damge to environment...then you might just as well say that Hydrogen Dioxide is an environmental poison/pollutant...I wouldn't believe THAT either...

Psst - the water feedback is actually the factor that will cause most warming, and it's a consequence of radiative forcing from CO2. Methane comes third.

Of course CO2 and methane don't drop out of the atmosphere when the atmospheric temperature drops - that's the main difference.

Anyway, you're jumping the gun. We need to get back to basics.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Climate Science Reply #158 - Aug 6^th, 2010 at 8:40pm Good idea- basics. Let's forget the anal retentive angle on CO2 for a moment ("Dirty!'). What are the good, dare I say essential, things CO2 does?
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qikvtec Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1846 Queensland	Re: Climate Science Reply #159 - Aug 6^th, 2010 at 8:54pm Can't we just plant out the Simpson desert with palm oil plantations and leave the ranga's in peace? If Co2 is the issue re-plant desolate areas.
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gizmo_2655

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Re: Climate Science
Reply #160 - Aug 6^th, 2010 at 9:41pm

muso wrote on Aug 6^th, 2010 at 7:52pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 6^th, 2010 at 12:22pm:

muso wrote on Aug 6^th, 2010 at 8:23am:

OK. I'll start on the weekend when I don't have to put up with all these stupid Windows hangups. We'll start with William Herschel and the other important discovery he made in 1800- that heat energy is transferred predominantly in the Infrared. Then we'll look at Infrared radiation as it applies to the Earth and Sun.

You don't need to start out that basically....

I have a good grounding in general science (slightly better in biology).
I'm quite well acquainted with the electro-magnetic spectrum and infrared radiation....
I should be, after all I learned about 30+ years ago in high school ...

- but you don't understand the basics of the greenhouse effect, which is why we should start at the beginning.

Yes I do...Unfortunately I qouted the scientific description..not the paranoid 'it'll all end in tears' version...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Climate Science
Reply #161 - Aug 6^th, 2010 at 9:44pm

"http://www.weatherquestions.com/What_is_the_greenhouse_effect.htm"

"There are two meanings of the term "greenhouse effect". There is a "natural" greenhouse effect that keeps the Earth's climate warm and habitable. There is also the "man-made" greenhouse effect, which is the enhancement of Earth's natural greenhouse effect by the addition of greenhouse gases from the burning of fossil fuels (mainly petroleum, coal, and natural gas). In order to understand how the greenhouse effect operates, we need to first understand "infrared radiation". Greenhouse gases trap some of the infrared radiation that escapes from the Earth, making the Earth warmer that it would otherwise be. You can think of greenhouse gases as sort of a "blanket" for infrared radiation-- it keeps the lower layers of the atmosphere warmer, and the upper layers colder, than if the greenhouse gases were not there."

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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muso

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Re: Climate Science
Reply #162 - Aug 6^th, 2010 at 9:46pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 6^th, 2010 at 9:41pm:

Quote:

- but you don't understand the basics of the greenhouse effect, which is why we should start at the beginning.

Yes I do...Unfortunately I qouted the scientific description..not the paranoid 'it'll all end in tears' version...

Do you remember much about Black Body radiation?

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muso

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Re: Climate Science
Reply #163 - Aug 6^th, 2010 at 9:48pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 6^th, 2010 at 9:44pm:

"http://www.weatherquestions.com/What_is_the_greenhouse_effect.htm"

"There are two meanings of the term "greenhouse effect". There is a "natural" greenhouse effect that keeps the Earth's climate warm and habitable. There is also the "man-made" greenhouse effect, which is the enhancement of Earth's natural greenhouse effect by the addition of greenhouse gases from the burning of fossil fuels (mainly petroleum, coal, and natural gas). In order to understand how the greenhouse effect operates, we need to first understand "infrared radiation". Greenhouse gases trap some of the infrared radiation that escapes from the Earth, making the Earth warmer that it would otherwise be. You can think of greenhouse gases as sort of a "blanket" for infrared radiation-- it keeps the lower layers of the atmosphere warmer, and the upper layers colder, than if the greenhouse gases were not there."

That's too basic an explanation for you to understand what's happening, but I'll explain more tomorrow.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Climate Science
Reply #164 - Aug 6^th, 2010 at 9:53pm

muso wrote on Aug 6^th, 2010 at 9:46pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 6^th, 2010 at 9:41pm:

Quote:

- but you don't understand the basics of the greenhouse effect, which is why we should start at the beginning.

Yes I do...Unfortunately I qouted the scientific description..not the paranoid 'it'll all end in tears' version...

Do you remember much about Black Body radiation?

It's been a while, but as I recall it means that a 'black body' will radiate infrared radiation when cold.. and as it warms, emits other wavelengths and appears to change colour...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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