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Re: Climate Science (Read 81003 times)
muso
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Re: Climate Science
Reply #135 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 8:05am
 
For what it's worth, I consider myself 'anti-AGW' as you put it.

I'd like to see measures taken to stop Anthropogenic Global Warming.

Mozz - Most denialists seem to be from the right of politics, but fortunately not everybody who is on the right of politics takes this view. In some aspects, I am right of centre.
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Climate Science
Reply #136 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 3:40pm
 
muso wrote on Aug 4th, 2010 at 8:05am:
For what it's worth, I consider myself 'anti-AGW' as you put it.

I'd like to see measures taken to stop Anthropogenic Global Warming.

Mozz - Most denialists seem to be from the right of politics, but fortunately not everybody who is on the right of politics takes this view. In some aspects, I am right of centre.


I'm 'anti-AGW' too....I don't think that humans have enough 'power' to out do Mother Nature....

The natural, inbuilt climatic systems are STILL far more powerful than anything humans can manage to produce....
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat
 
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muso
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Re: Climate Science
Reply #137 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 3:59pm
 
gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 4th, 2010 at 3:40pm:
muso wrote on Aug 4th, 2010 at 8:05am:
For what it's worth, I consider myself 'anti-AGW' as you put it.

I'd like to see measures taken to stop Anthropogenic Global Warming.

Mozz - Most denialists seem to be from the right of politics, but fortunately not everybody who is on the right of politics takes this view. In some aspects, I am right of centre.


I'm 'anti-AGW' too....I don't think that humans have enough 'power' to out do Mother Nature....

The natural, inbuilt climatic systems are STILL far more powerful than anything humans can manage to produce....


Tell me what you understand by the term "Greenhouse Effect"?
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perceptions_now
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Re: Climate Science
Reply #138 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 4:39pm
 
gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 4th, 2010 at 3:40pm:
muso wrote on Aug 4th, 2010 at 8:05am:
For what it's worth, I consider myself 'anti-AGW' as you put it.

I'd like to see measures taken to stop Anthropogenic Global Warming.

Mozz - Most denialists seem to be from the right of politics, but fortunately not everybody who is on the right of politics takes this view. In some aspects, I am right of centre.


I'm 'anti-AGW' too....I don't think that humans have enough 'power' to out do Mother Nature....

The natural, inbuilt climatic systems are STILL far more powerful than anything humans can manage to produce....


Over time, I would agree, the Earth will re-do, what we have un-done.

However, WE (humans) don't operate on a "planetary time scale", so we will simply get what we gave, be passed by and then the Earth will rectify our damage!

Btw, I don't know if it was a deliberate choice, but our 'power' or "sources of Energy" is largely where our problems emmanate from!
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perceptions_now
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Re: Climate Science
Reply #139 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 4:48pm
 
David Suzuki: Declining phytoplankton another sign of climate catastrophe


As we wrote recently, nothing would please us more than if climate change deniers were right. It isn’t fun to delve daily into the ever-mounting evidence of the catastrophic consequences of climate change. And life would be easier if we didn’t have to spend it trying to get stubborn governments to do something about the problem, and trying to get the public to care without driving them to depression.

Facing daily attacks from people who deny reality isn’t much fun either.

But evidence that the world is warming, mainly because of our fossil fuel addiction, and that this is having increasingly disastrous effects on our health and on the health of the planet’s ecosystems, keeps growing.

Meanwhile, arguments from deniers keep getting knocked down, to the point where one must conclude that there really are only two types of denier: those who are paid by industry to spread misinformation in attempts to confuse the public, which is criminal, and those who are unable to see the evidence staring them in the face and who still cling to arguments that one minute with Google would dispel, which is pathetic and stupid.

The latest blow to the deniers came when the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency examined in detail 10 petitions challenging its 2009 finding that climate change is endangering the planet, that it is largely caused by burning fossil fuels, and that it threatens human health and the environment.

In every case, the EPA found that the petitions misinterpreted data, contained outright false claims, and included exaggerated charges.

“The endangerment finding is based on years of science from the U.S. and around the world,” said EPA administrator Lisa P. Jackson. “These petitions—based as they are on selectively edited, out-of-context data and a manufactured controversy—provide no evidence to undermine our determination. Excess greenhouse gases are a threat to our health and welfare.”


Another recent report, published by the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, looked at data from 10 climate indicators measured by 300 scientists from 160 research groups in 48 countries. It concluded that human-caused climate change is undeniable and is increasing.

And so ice in the Arctic and in glaciers continues to melt, ocean temperatures and sea levels continue to rise, ecosystems and wildlife habitats continue to shift or degrade, and extreme weather events continue to become more frequent.

On top of that, a recent study by Dalhousie University oceanographer Boris Worm and his team found that phytoplankton populations in the ocean are declining at an alarming rate because of human activity and climate change. Why should we care? Well, these microscopic plants are the base of the food chain and account for half the production of organic matter on Earth. They also remove carbon dioxide from the air and produce more than half the oxygen we breathe.

According to report co-author Marlon Lewis, "Climate-driven phytoplankton declines are another important dimension of global change in the oceans, which are already stressed by the effects of fishing and pollution.” The report, published in the July 29 edition of Nature, states that phytoplankton have declined by about 40 per cent since 1950.

We can’t live without them.


While governments stall and deniers spread confusion, it gets more and more difficult to achieve the kind of emissions reductions that scientists say are necessary to prevent the Earth from reaching a cataclysmic rise in global average temperatures. It was once possible, and may still be, but we are reaching a point where it will become impossible.

We all have a responsibility to do everything we can to reduce our own emissions, to vote for governments that make climate change a priority, and to make sure those governments focus on real solutions. We know that conserving energy and shifting to cleaner energy will not just help solve the climate crisis but will also resolve many pollution-related health issues and may even give economies a boost.

The fossil fuel industry, which continues to reap multi-billion dollar profits, has spent millions to support a handful of deniers, right-wing think tanks, and websites that call climate change “junk science” and deny human activity is influencing global warming.

It’s time we all started ignoring the insane blathering of the deniers. We’ve already wasted too much time on them—and we don’t have time to waste
Link -
http://www.straight.com/article-336974/vancouver/david-suzuki-declining-phytopla...
==========
Suzuki certainly has a good handle on the reality of the situation we face.

Following is a link to the full article on "Marine Phytoplankton Declining: Striking Global Changes at the Base of the Marine Food Web Linked to Rising Ocean Temperatures".
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100728131705.htm
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Climate Science
Reply #140 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 6:06pm
 
muso wrote on Aug 4th, 2010 at 3:59pm:
gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 4th, 2010 at 3:40pm:
muso wrote on Aug 4th, 2010 at 8:05am:
For what it's worth, I consider myself 'anti-AGW' as you put it.

I'd like to see measures taken to stop Anthropogenic Global Warming.

Mozz - Most denialists seem to be from the right of politics, but fortunately not everybody who is on the right of politics takes this view. In some aspects, I am right of centre.


I'm 'anti-AGW' too....I don't think that humans have enough 'power' to out do Mother Nature....

The natural, inbuilt climatic systems are STILL far more powerful than anything humans can manage to produce....


Tell me what you understand by the term "Greenhouse Effect"?


Yeah I DO understand the Greenhouse effect...
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat
 
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mozzaok
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Re: Climate Science
Reply #141 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 9:59pm
 
Why not write to David Suzuki and tell him why he is wrong Gizmo?
We would be interested to see how the exchange goes.

The trouble with Denialists is that they have a very small, and select group of scientists whose utterances they follow with religious fervour, despite the fact these men do not submit work for peer review, and have no ideas or beliefs that have not been thoroughly debunked by experts from the relevant fields.
We have a hard core group of extreme right wing think tanks that proliferate misinformation at an alarming rate that Denialists always accept totally on face value, without subjecting it to any critical analysis beyond it making sense to them as a layman.

Well congratulations, you have elevated ideological opinion as being more relevant and worthy of respect than considered and agreed upon scientific analysis.

Bob Menzies had a motto; "Bullshit baffles brains", well he sure got that right.
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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!
 
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perceptions_now
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Re: Climate Science
Reply #142 - Aug 4th, 2010 at 10:05pm
 
Heat wave and drought slam Europe


The scorching temperatures and dry skies threatening Russia's wheat harvests have also been beating down on Western Europe, which is forecasting lower output of crops from French wheat to Italian tomatoes.

Russia's Agriculture Ministry Tuesday cut its forecast for the country's 2010 grain output to between 70 million and 75 million metric tons, down from earlier estimates of as much as 90 million tons.

Weather forecasts don't see any imminent relief from record Russian temperatures of up to 40 degrees Celsius (104 degrees Fahrenheit). The weather has prompted wildfires that so far have claimed 40 lives, authorities say.


Western Europeans also expect their own markedly dry summer to cut a swath through the production of grain, fruit and vegetables this year.

Ben Lloyd-Hughes, a climate scientist at the University of Reading's Walker Institute in England, says pockets of Western Europe also are being affected by drought, but that Southwest Russia, Ukraine and Belarus are hardest hit.

"It is the lowest rainfall and the highest temperatures that the area has seen in the last 30 years or more," he said. "Droughts at this time of year in that region tend to reinforce themselves because the soil dries out, which subsequently makes the drought worse. The weather forecast for the next week is for more sun."

Russia's expected wheat shortfall has sent world prices of the grain soaring. France, Western Europe's biggest wheat producer, also could take a big hit.

Problems with the weather this year started with the winter, which was colder for longer than farmers would have liked it. The dearth of rain in June affected yields of early crops. Although July brought some rain, the level was sharply below the month's historical average.

Germany's weather office reported rainfall was at only 42% of normal levels. The U.K. Met Office reported a similar drop in southeast England.
While European consumers face higher grocery bills, the global impact of the European heat wave will come through the wheat market. The major source of uncertainty is the supply, or lack of it, from the Black Sea region, especially from Russia, Ukraine and Kazakhstan.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev on Monday declared a state emergency in seven regions, including around Moscow. Some 300 to 400 new blazes are starting every day, said Vladimir Stepanov, head of the Emergency Situations Ministry's crisis center.
Link -
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB30001424052748703545604575406744149559092.html
============
One of the costs of Climate Change, will be increasing Food Prices & Shortages.

For example, wheat has now risen 60% from June lows.


http://www.smh.com.au/business/markets/wheat-jumps-after-strongest-month-in-half...
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muso
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Re: Climate Science
Reply #143 - Aug 5th, 2010 at 9:13am
 
muso wrote on Aug 4th, 2010 at 3:59pm:
Tell me what you understand by the term "Greenhouse Effect"?


gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 4th, 2010 at 3:40pm:
Yeah I DO understand the Greenhouse effect...


RTFQ.  I don't believe that you understand it. Prove me wrong, preferably in your own words.
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Climate Science
Reply #144 - Aug 5th, 2010 at 9:23am
 
muso wrote on Aug 5th, 2010 at 9:13am:
muso wrote on Aug 4th, 2010 at 3:59pm:
Tell me what you understand by the term "Greenhouse Effect"?


gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 4th, 2010 at 3:40pm:
Yeah I DO understand the Greenhouse effect...


RTFQ.  I don't believe that you understand it. Prove me wrong.


The Greenhouse Effect is the way heat is held in the atmosphere by a combination of gases, mainly water vapour, carbon dioxide and methane.

As the Sun's rays (UVA ,UVB, Infrared etc) enter the atmosphere (and are reflected back from the Earth's surface) the solar radiation heats these gases. At night, this heat is re-radiated into space, at a lower rate than it is absorbed, and this serves as a method to regulate and diffuse the heat to all of the planet......
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat
 
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muso
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Re: Climate Science
Reply #145 - Aug 5th, 2010 at 9:50am
 
gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 5th, 2010 at 9:23am:
muso wrote on Aug 5th, 2010 at 9:13am:
muso wrote on Aug 4th, 2010 at 3:59pm:
Tell me what you understand by the term "Greenhouse Effect"?


gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 4th, 2010 at 3:40pm:
Yeah I DO understand the Greenhouse effect...


RTFQ.  I don't believe that you understand it. Prove me wrong.


The Greenhouse Effect is the way heat is held in the atmosphere by a combination of gases, mainly water vapour, carbon dioxide and methane.

As the Sun's rays (UVA ,UVB, Infrared etc) enter the atmosphere (and are reflected back from the Earth's surface) the solar radiation heats these gases. At night, this heat is re-radiated into space, at a lower rate than it is absorbed, and this serves as a method to regulate and diffuse the heat to all of the planet......



Ok, but the devil is in the details. Please let me talk you through this in a non-antagonistic way. I'd prefer to take it step by step and you can tell me where your opinion differs from my account. This may take some time, and due to work and personal commitments I may be absent for periods. 

How does that sound?
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Climate Science
Reply #146 - Aug 5th, 2010 at 12:10pm
 
muso wrote on Aug 5th, 2010 at 9:50am:
gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 5th, 2010 at 9:23am:
muso wrote on Aug 5th, 2010 at 9:13am:
muso wrote on Aug 4th, 2010 at 3:59pm:
Tell me what you understand by the term "Greenhouse Effect"?


gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 4th, 2010 at 3:40pm:
Yeah I DO understand the Greenhouse effect...


RTFQ.  I don't believe that you understand it. Prove me wrong.


The Greenhouse Effect is the way heat is held in the atmosphere by a combination of gases, mainly water vapour, carbon dioxide and methane.

As the Sun's rays (UVA ,UVB, Infrared etc) enter the atmosphere (and are reflected back from the Earth's surface) the solar radiation heats these gases. At night, this heat is re-radiated into space, at a lower rate than it is absorbed, and this serves as a method to regulate and diffuse the heat to all of the planet......



Ok, but the devil is in the details. Please let me talk you through this in a non-antagonistic way. I'd prefer to take it step by step and you can tell me where your opinion differs from my account. This may take some time, and due to work and personal commitments I may be absent for periods.  

How does that sound?


Sounds fair enough to me
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat
 
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muso
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Re: Climate Science
Reply #147 - Aug 6th, 2010 at 8:23am
 
OK. I'll start on the weekend when I don't have to put up with all these stupid Windows hangups. We'll start with William Herschel and the other important discovery he made in 1800- that heat energy is transferred predominantly in the Infrared.  Then we'll look at Infrared radiation as it applies to the Earth and Sun.
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Climate Science
Reply #148 - Aug 6th, 2010 at 12:22pm
 
muso wrote on Aug 6th, 2010 at 8:23am:
OK. I'll start on the weekend when I don't have to put up with all these stupid Windows hangups. We'll start with William Herschel and the other important discovery he made in 1800- that heat energy is transferred predominantly in the Infrared.  Then we'll look at Infrared radiation as it applies to the Earth and Sun.


You don't need to start out that basically....

I have a good grounding in general science (slightly better in biology).
I'm quite well acquainted with the electro-magnetic spectrum and infrared radiation....
I should be, after all I learned about 30+ years ago in high school ...
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat
 
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Paella
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Re: Climate Science
Reply #149 - Aug 6th, 2010 at 3:29pm
 
gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 4th, 2010 at 3:40pm:
I'm 'anti-AGW' too....I don't think that humans have enough 'power' to out do Mother Nature....

The natural, inbuilt climatic systems are STILL far more powerful than anything humans can manage to produce....


Here's a word for you gizmo:

Equilibrium

Look it up some time.
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