Australian Politics Forum - Climate doubt acknowledged by Alarmists.

Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Climate doubt acknowledged by Alarmists. Reply #45 - Apr 21^st, 2010 at 11:49am keeping up with the physics of things are we Muso...? i think not. my 10 trumps your 3.
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mozzaok Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 6741 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Climate doubt acknowledged by Alarmists. Reply #46 - Apr 21^st, 2010 at 12:17pm What is an oblate spheroid? Is it anything like a prolapsed hemorrhoid?
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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Climate doubt acknowledged by Alarmists. Reply #47 - Apr 21^st, 2010 at 12:17pm Just explain to me what the Uncertainty Principle means for anything other than quantum mechanics.
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mozzaok Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 6741 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Climate doubt acknowledged by Alarmists. Reply #48 - Apr 21^st, 2010 at 12:20pm muso wrote on Apr 21^st, 2010 at 12:17pm: Just explain to me what the Uncertainty Principle means for anything other than quantum mechanics. I don't know.
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Climate doubt acknowledged by Alarmists. Reply #49 - Apr 21^st, 2010 at 1:16pm muso wrote on Apr 21^st, 2010 at 12:17pm: Just explain to me what the Uncertainty Principle means Not sure...
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muso

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Re: Climate doubt acknowledged by Alarmists.
Reply #50 - Apr 21^st, 2010 at 3:37pm

Ok. (Deep breath) It's always a source of amusement to me when people start talking about the Uncertainty Principle as if it has any connection with scientific uncertainty or it in any way describes the nature of the world. Creationists in particular take great delight in totally misinterpreting it.

The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle just demonstrates that there is no real way of pinpointing the exact position of a subatomic particle without accepting that its exact motion will remain very unpredictable and not that any uncertainty remains as to the absolute charge/position of the particle.

The Uncertainty Principle refers only to human limitations and not to any real description of the world. The world remains as it has always been - strictly one of unrelenting cause/effect without any exceptions.

It applies strictly to subatomic particles and along with Schrödinger's wave equation forms the basis of Quantum Mechanics. It enables us to predict, among other things, the frequency and intensity of spectral lines, and energy levels in more complex systems such as the carbon dioxide molecule and confirms observations of the infrared absorption spectrum among other things.

It doesn't apply to the macro world in any shape or form. It has nothing to do with your train being late, or the typical Schoolboy jokes on exam papers.

As Einstein said "God does not play dice" Wink

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Climate doubt acknowledged by Alarmists. Reply #51 - Apr 21^st, 2010 at 5:36pm Soren wrote on Apr 21^st, 2010 at 1:16pm: muso wrote on Apr 21^st, 2010 at 12:17pm: Just explain to me what the Uncertainty Principle means Not sure... Whatch out - joke. Uncertianty principle - not sure... geddit? Treat this as an equaliser for my not getting the honey and lettuce for breakfast quip.
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muso

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Re: Climate doubt acknowledged by Alarmists.
Reply #52 - Apr 21^st, 2010 at 6:01pm

Soren wrote on Apr 21^st, 2010 at 5:36pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 21^st, 2010 at 1:16pm:

muso wrote on Apr 21^st, 2010 at 12:17pm:

Just explain to me what the Uncertainty Principle means

Not sure...

Whatch out - joke. Cheesy

Uncertianty principle - not sure... geddit?

Treat this as an equaliser for my not getting the honey and lettuce for breakfast quip.

I know it was a joke, and the same applies to Mozzaok. My reply was only directed to the "look you idiots" poster who has apparently had a you-beaut best-education-money-can-buy in Chemistry and Physics but confuses Scientific Uncertainty with the Uncertainty Principle.

That reverse gear must be getting sticky by now Wink

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Paella

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Re: Climate doubt acknowledged by Alarmists.
Reply #53 - Apr 21^st, 2010 at 6:03pm

Quote:

...the theory that Earth is an oblate spheroid is not a theory. It is a proven fact.

^{I removed the caps, They get tiresome}.

Beo, you need to understand that the two terms are not mutually exclusive. The theory of evolution is also a "proven fact", so to speak. If you are unable to accept that scientific facts are not "known" absolutley and positively, then you really seem to be struggling with science at the conceptual level.

I very much doubt that you have undertaken any serious science study at all.

But what exactly is a "proven fact"? I suspect you are demanding that for a "fact" to be "proven" it needs to be positively proven beyond any doubt at all. I.e., that the probability that it is not absolutley and positively correct is precisely zero.

There are no such proven facts: no one knows anything with 100% certainty. Let's take the theory that the Earth is an oblate spheroid, since it seems to be a favourite:

- Do you know with 100% certainty that there isn't a subtle but mathematically real variation in some part of the surface that can be explained by another or a new scientific theory? Can you prove it?
- Do you know with 100% certainty that on each occasion that instruments have been used to survey the Earth's shape and or size, that the instruments haven't coincidentally malfunctioned? Can you prove it?
- Do you know with 100% certainty that the scientists who have published their findings on the shape of the Earth are not involved in a massive conspiracy to establish world conquest through world government? Can you prove it?
- Do you know with 100% certainty that we haven't all been hypnotised by the flying spaghetti monster to hear "oblate spheroid" whenever someone says "cube" (some of us may hear "ellipsoid, sorry")? Can you prove it?
- Do you know with 100% certainty that your entire life has not been just a dream? Can you prove it?
- Do you know with 100% certainty that the universe actually exists? Can you prove it?

If you can prove any of the above, with 100% certainty of course, I look forward to you publishing the proofs. Let us know.

Quote:

...I studied Science, I also studied Chemistry and Physics, I understand "uncertainty" and can even quote Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle (not that I'm a fan of it) or discuss Max Planck or Niels Bohr if you like.

That's great to hear. Though, for the reasons stated, I doubt any of these studies were at a level beyond high school (and if they were, I don't think you were listening). But let's find out: I suggest we discuss the the absorption of infrared radiation by CO₂. What can your extensive education in the sciences tell us, I wonder?

Oh, and there's quite a difference between being able to quote the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, and actually having some level of comprehension of it.

(on that last point, I don't agree with Muso's summation on a number of points, but that can be for another thread).

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Grendel

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Re: Climate doubt acknowledged by Alarmists.
Reply #54 - Apr 21^st, 2010 at 7:51pm

thanks fellas for proving you are all egotistical wankers... excluding Soren of course and Mozz (who is like the little dog in the Looney Toons Cartoons) "Muso's my friend cause he's so big and stroooong... " Grin

I never said Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle has anything to do with anything... (except perhaps physics)
never ASSUME MUSO... but hey that great big EGO of yours assumes everyone else is dumber... right. Roll Eyes

I never even mentioned quantum mechanics, or protons or electrons or any sub atomic particles or packets of energy or wave forms or or or or... I never said it had anything to do with plus or minus half the smallest measure either or anything except that it contained the word Uncertainty... I'm sorry if that went straight over your bloated empty heads.

I mentioned it because it contained the word... Uncertainty... which Pooella brought up.

BTW I'm not struggling Poobaby... you are. I also don't need to knock others down to build myself up. I don't even worry about such things. When you and muso grow up perhaps you'll see the idiocy in being like that and change.

As for proof... I look forward to either of you publishing proof of AGW Theory as the primary driver for climate change. Or whatever it is you believe. That will no doubt get you both a Nobel prize.

Stop talking down to me.
Stop assuming I'm dumber than you.
Stop assuming I have had no education.

When everyone smarter than you agrees with you, I might just give you more credence.

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Soren

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Re: Climate doubt acknowledged by Alarmists.
Reply #55 - Apr 21^st, 2010 at 8:37pm

muso wrote on Apr 21^st, 2010 at 3:37pm:

Ok. (Deep breath)
The Uncertainty Principle refers only to human limitations and not to any real description of the world. The world remains as it has always been - strictly one of unrelenting cause/effect without any exceptions.

Well - kinda-sorta.

There isn't any more 'real description of the world' than the human description. And since at least Kant we also realise that cause/effect and time and a few other categories are not in the world but are part of the way reason and the mind operate (this was philosophy's Copernican revolution).

While subatomic physics will not throw the rail time table into chaos, it does nod towards our serious limitations regarding knowledge of the mind of god. It shows that our formulation of principles/laws ('timetables') is limited, rather than our reading and interpreting of the said timetables, as it were.

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« Last Edit: Apr 21^st, 2010 at 9:10pm by Soren »

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Paella Senior Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 290	Re: Climate doubt acknowledged by Alarmists. Reply #56 - Apr 21^st, 2010 at 9:57pm So Grendel, does that comprise the sum total of your knowledge of the absorption of infrared radiation by CO₂? You should have it published!
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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Climate doubt acknowledged by Alarmists. Reply #57 - Apr 21^st, 2010 at 9:58pm Does that comprise your sum ability to comprehend? How unfortunate.
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Climate doubt acknowledged by Alarmists. Reply #58 - Apr 21^st, 2010 at 10:02pm Fight ya bitches
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Grendel

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Re: Climate doubt acknowledged by Alarmists.
Reply #59 - Apr 21^st, 2010 at 10:06pm

Oh but since you seem so interested in the topic, how about you enlighten us all on your thoughts on this article...

http://nov55.com/ntyg.html

or this one...

http://brneurosci.org/co2.html

hey check out the "uncertainty"...
Quote:

Cold Facts on Global Warming

W hat is the contribution of anthropogenic carbon dioxide to global warming? This question has been the subject of many heated arguments, and a great deal of hysteria. In this article, we will consider a simple estimate based on well-accepted facts, that shows that the expected global temperature increase caused by doubling atmospheric carbon dioxide levels is bounded by an upper limit of 1.76±0.27 degrees Celsius. This result contrasts with the results of the IPCC's climate models, whose projections are shown to be unrealistically high. Even though global warming has become mostly an academic concern now that the climate has moved into a cooling phase [24], it's still important to understand what is and is not factual about the climate.

Oh almost forgot... I know I've mentioned it several times now, but are you aware that CO2 doesn't just absorb radiation?

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« Last Edit: Apr 21^st, 2010 at 10:18pm by Grendel »

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