Australian Politics Forum - Drug war is lost

Bobby.

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Re: Drug war is lost
Reply #30 - Mar 22^nd, 2011 at 10:02pm

muso wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2011 at 4:32pm:

Bobby. wrote on Sep 16^th, 2010 at 10:41am:

Amadd - I think society should take a medical approach to drug abuse.
Surely it's a medical problem & we are wasting time & money
turning it into a policing problem?
For many harmless pot users the legal problem is the only problem.
They contribute to society - harm no one & pay taxes yet they are treated as criminals.

I agree. Make it easy for drug users to get health checks in a non-judgmental environment.

However, There is no such thing as harmless pot.

Drug dealers deserve no mercy.

The only thing that annoys me about drug users is that to me they are selfish.
They expect society to pick up the pieces with social welfare etc
& many contribute no taxes in return - I'm talking about the ones
who indulge to excess - & the same could be said of alcohol.
They are just parasites on the rest of us who work hard.

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muso

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Re: Drug war is lost
Reply #31 - Mar 23^rd, 2011 at 10:01am

Bobby. wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2011 at 10:02pm:

The only thing that annoys me about drug users is that to me they are selfish.
They expect society to pick up the pieces with social welfare etc
& many contribute no taxes in return - I'm talking about the ones
who indulge to excess - & the same could be said of alcohol.
They are just parasites on the rest of us who work hard.

When it comes to drug users (and people with STI's) society as a whole suffers. You're right - as individuals these people are selfish, however I tend to think more about what can be done collectively to reduce the overall risk for society as a whole.

If we do nothing and expect eveybody to pay up for medical supervision, then we'll end up like the US, which has a much bigger problem than we do.

These people tend to use what money they have to buy drugs. Some of them will even rob or commit violent crime to feed their addiction. They generally won't spend money on medical checks. It comes down to the question of whether we want some degree of medical supervision, or total chaos.

Safe injection rooms may be an option, with methadone programs, clean syringes etc. I know it's controversial, but it's for the benefit of society as a whole. If you had a son or daughter who was attacked by a deranged crackhead, you'd probably think that any degree of medical supervision is better than none.

We read about some really heinous violent crime and wonder - what kind of person could have done this? In many cases, drugs are involved.

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Bobby. Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 120432 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Drug war is lost Reply #32 - Mar 23^rd, 2011 at 12:39pm Muso, When you say drugs - always include - alchohol.
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muso

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Re: Drug war is lost
Reply #33 - Mar 23^rd, 2011 at 3:03pm

Bobby. wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2011 at 12:39pm:

Muso,
When you say drugs - always include - alchohol. Wink

Alcohol is a legal drug. I'm not suggesting the death penalty for all publicans. Grin

- but in the context of violent crime, of course.

Those people who say "They stuffed up their life - Big deal" don't grasp the fact that there are consequences, like increases in homicides, rape and other violent crime. They stuffed up their life, and that of every poor soul whose path they happened to cross.

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« Last Edit: Mar 23^rd, 2011 at 3:14pm by muso »

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Life_goes_on

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Re: Drug war is lost
Reply #34 - Mar 23^rd, 2011 at 7:55pm

The vast majority of "drug related" crime is more a function of the illegality of the drug than the actual effect of the drug itself.

Heroin addicts choose their method of making money - shopping, blagging or working - it takes an incredible leap to resort to violence to obtain that cash - and only then when they're hanging out and not because of direct effects of the drug.

While coming off meth can cause some probs, it only affects a tiny proportion of users - but then you have to remember it was the controls on the chemicals used to make old style speed (which always had a much smaller market due to the extreme experience of using it) that caused the introduction of meth here.

Prohibition is counter-productive, but the damage has been done now. I don't know what the solution is.

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"You're just one lucky motherf-cker" - Someone, 5th February 2013

Num num num num.

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Soren

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Re: Drug war is lost
Reply #35 - Mar 23^rd, 2011 at 8:04pm

Antisocial drug users are a hideous underclass - regardless of their income - sheltering behind 'addiction'. A load of nonsense.
Send them to an orphanage in Africa to work and see if they have the hide to bleat about how hard they have it.
If drug users can't cover the expenses and wear the social consequences of their habits then they are nothing but full-of-sh!t parasites.

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Soren

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Re: Drug war is lost
Reply #36 - Mar 23^rd, 2011 at 8:08pm

Bobby. wrote on Sep 8^th, 2010 at 5:51pm:

We need to understand why people are so miserable
& help them to discover a happier life.

Because they have their soft heads up their own pampered arses. All the way. If that's too traditional, try 'because it's Nature's way of telling them they are redundant'.

Either way, it's their own doing. Either they are responsible for themselves or not. They can't have the vote and a driver's licence but no responsibility for what they do.

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muso

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Re: Drug war is lost
Reply #37 - Mar 24^th, 2011 at 6:54pm

Soren wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2011 at 8:04pm:

Antisocial drug users are a hideous underclass - regardless of their income - sheltering behind 'addiction'. A load of nonsense.
Send them to an orphanage in Africa to work and see if they have the hide to bleat about how hard they have it.
If drug users can't cover the expenses and wear the social consequences of their habits then they are nothing but full-of-sh!t parasites.

I agree (for once), but there are two ways of looking at the problem 1. - from the view that these undeserving 'dregs of society' shouldn't get any free handouts from society, or 2. from the perspective that we're not going to solve this problem overnight, so how do we manage the problem in order to have the most cost effective risk reduction for society? If we go for this outreach option, we should also consider how we go about it in order to achieve the maximum effect.

As a parent, surely you must see some merit in the latter approach.

Quote:

Send them to an orphanage in Africa to work and see if they have the hide to bleat about how hard they have it.

Send them to build toilets in Africa Tongue

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« Last Edit: Mar 24^th, 2011 at 7:05pm by muso »

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MoreKavaPlease

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Re: Drug war is lost
Reply #38 - Mar 25^th, 2011 at 11:41am

I believe the drug law is a drastic failure...

I believe Marijuana should legalized for those aged over 18 and sold alongside alcohol, and Magic Mushrooms should be legal to collect for your own person use, but illegal to sell / trade/ provide to people under 18.

I believe heroin should be prescribed by doctors for enthusiasts and people with addictions. Prescription grade heroin isn't that bad when used sensibly. As long as you don't overdose or allow yourself to suddenly run out if you have a physical dependence, it has no serious effects on the body beyond constipation and drowsiness. IMO, I prefer Kava to heroin- honestly.

Meth and cocaine should be illegal, they are really scummy drugs. Ecstacy should be legal, but you should require a letter of authorization or a prescription from a doctor.

Alcohol deserves to be illegal far more than Marijuana or Ecstasy.

There should be strong laws discouraging the supply of drugs to minors.

I was a heavy smoker of marijuana up until several months ago, since then I have moved on to my new love- Kava. I think the ridiculous restrictions which make Kava hard to obtain should be lifted. Kava when used in moderation by even semi-sensible people, given some basic education about how to use it- is harmless. Makes you feel really nicely relaxed and happy when you have the right amount, but have too much and you can feel overly sedated, and temporarily zombified. However it does not cause out of control behavior like alcohol. Very high doses may aggravate depression in susceptible people (until it clears out of the system) because it is a CNS depressant. I myself suffer from depression (treated successfully with medication) and I drink a fair bit of Kava, as you might have guessed lol. Chronic misuse can cause apathy and mild to moderate health problems, but we are talking very heavy use.

BTW first post, just found this forum the other day.

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« Last Edit: Mar 25^th, 2011 at 11:47am by MoreKavaPlease »

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muso

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Re: Drug war is lost
Reply #39 - Mar 25^th, 2011 at 2:32pm

Now I remember actually buying a can of drink that contained Kava from a shop in Hindley Street or thereabouts in Adelaide. Apparently it's perfectly legal in Australia. It didn't do much more than a cup of coffee.

It's one of the less objectionable 'drugs'

Quote:

In 2007, new restrictions on importing kava into Australia were introduced. These include:

* The importation of kava in Australia is only permitted for medical or scientific purposes.
* People aged over 18 years entering Australia can bring in up to 2kg of kava in their accompanied baggage.

Interesting. I just tried it once because it was something different to the usual soft drinks.

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MoreKavaPlease

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Re: Drug war is lost
Reply #40 - Mar 25^th, 2011 at 7:59pm

Oh it does something if you have enough of it... You need to have strong Kava on a totally empty stomach (as in 6-7 hours nothing but water or longer if you last had a big meal), and drink a serving every 20 minutes or so for 1-1.5 hours, then you will get an effect stronger than coffee I can assure you, except the opposite

I don't know about the drink you mentioned but doesn't sound encouraging. You need Kava root or at least decent root power. It tastes like the devil though. Also the Kava "tablets" are rubbish.

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Belgarion

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Re: Drug war is lost
Reply #41 - Mar 25^th, 2011 at 8:19pm

Kava looks and tastes like used washing up water* and I fail to see how anyone could get pleasure out of drinking it. However each to their own and kava does have a generally calming effect.

The reasons its import into Australia had been restricted however is because of its misuse by aboriginal communities. They have moved away from the ceremonial use of the pacific islanders and are using in such quantities as to seriously damage their health.

*i once drank washing up water on a scout camp as a dare, so I can truthfully make this comparison. Wink

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Amadd

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Re: Drug war is lost
Reply #42 - Mar 26^th, 2011 at 12:34am

Well said Soren.
I think that you are extremely pompous. In fact, I think that you represent the dregs of pompousness. You are in fact the dregs of society without even knowing or caring ..but that's OK, it takes all types...but I'd dearly hope that you of all people aren't granted with the honour of teaching our young ones.

You are in fact on the same platform as the most deprived and dredded drug user without even knowing. So at least you have something in common with them.

If you think that the exclusion of drugs within a society would be a resultant positive, then you should research your history a little more closely.
You have your facts all wrong IMHO.i

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« Last Edit: Mar 26^th, 2011 at 12:56am by Amadd »

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Bobby.

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Re: Drug war is lost
Reply #43 - Mar 26^th, 2011 at 8:36am

Soren wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2011 at 8:08pm:

Bobby. wrote on Sep 8^th, 2010 at 5:51pm:

We need to understand why people are so miserable
& help them to discover a happier life.

Because they have their soft heads up their own pampered arses. All the way. If that's too traditional, try 'because it's Nature's way of telling them they are redundant'.

Either way, it's their own doing. Either they are responsible for themselves or not. They can't have the vote and a driver's licence but no responsibility for what they do.

That's rubbish Soren.
We have created a society where people are unhappy often through
NO of fault of their own.
Many people get can't buy a house to live in - they can't pay their bills -
they are working poor being exploited.
Drug use seems to be more rife in the lower demographics.
It's a symptom of a failing society.
You have to feel sorry for people who are so miserable that their only
way of escaping for a short while is to stick a needle in their arm
of some powder that a gangster sells them on the street -
which could be Ajax for all they know.
They could have the cleanest veins in town but also be dead.

This caused by our sick, unfair society but once
again you blame the drug addicts.

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muso

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Re: Drug war is lost
Reply #44 - Mar 26^th, 2011 at 10:11am

Bobby. wrote on Mar 26^th, 2011 at 8:36am:

We have created a society where people are unhappy often through
NO of fault of their own.
Many people get can't buy a house to live in - they can't pay their bills -
they are working poor being exploited.
Drug use seems to be more rife in the lower demographics.
It's a symptom of a failing society.
You have to feel sorry for people who are so miserable that their only
way of escaping for a short while is to stick a needle in their arm
of some powder that a gangster sells them on the street -
which could be Ajax for all they know.
They could have the cleanest veins in town but also be dead.

This caused by our sick, unfair society but once
again you blame the drug addicts.

Good point that drug use is a symptom of underlying problems. I have absolutely no sympathy for drug dealers who are main reason for the scale of this problem.

However Drug addicts need to be treated as patients rather than felons. The suggestion of outreach programs makes more sense in that context.

Whatever we can do to reduce drugs on the streets is a good thing.

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