Australian Politics Forum - agnosticism vs atheism

muso

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Re: agnosticism vs atheism
Reply #45 - Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 9:40am

freediver wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2010 at 9:55pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2010 at 8:55am:

You’re still keeping up that linguistic “sleight of hand”. It’s not that atheists “believe that god does not exist”. They disbelieve/do not subscribe to the conclusion/assertion that god exists.

No Helian, that is you. You use the same definition of atheism and agnosticism, in direct contradiction to their usual distinction, and leave atheists without a term to refer to them. You define atheists out of existence. Why don't you just take the rational approach and make your defence for agnostics, which is what you are actually talking about?

This demonstrates how futile the argument is. We can't even agree on a definition between the non-religious here.

For example a person who has not even considered the concept of a god or gods and who consequently doesn't believe in them would be atheistic according to my criterion. He doesn't believe in god(s). End of story. The question of existence doesn't even come into it. It's more a question of whether the concept of god(s) has any relevance for that person's life.

Regardless of the fact that many people who call themselves atheists on internet forums etc (and are proud of the fact for whatever reason) are taking a position against religion, this is a (probably tiny) subset of the millions of other people who are atheistic by default.

A person who doesn't believe in god(s) is an atheist regardless of what colour their hair is or anything else. Now to me, that's obvious.

A person who follows a theistic type religion even for the cultural aspects is by default a theist. God(s) are relevant to his life. Whether or not he believes that they exist is irrelevant. A person who doesn't believe that god(s) exist could just as easily be a theist.

Let's take another example - a person who believes that god exists as a consequence of the fact that millions of people believe in him(her). He believes that the perceived attributes of the god would result in predictable consequences as a result of the actions and perceptions of millions of people -in other words, god is a mass socio-psychological phenomenon. Is that person a theist or an atheist? Well it depends on your definition of god (you know - that indefinable term)

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: agnosticism vs atheism Reply #46 - Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 9:49am Soren wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2010 at 8:06pm: Do we have souls? No. You don't
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: agnosticism vs atheism
Reply #47 - Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 9:55am

muso wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 9:40am:

A person who doesn't believe in god(s) is an atheist regardless of what colour their hair is or anything else. Now to me, that's obvious.

Not intending, I presume, to mean that the subject is believing in non-existence, but that he is disbelieving/not subscribing to the assertion that god exists.

There are few cultures that have not imagined a god, but one that I've heard of (an Amazonian tribe) have no theology at all. And when missionaries tried to teach them about god, they didn't believe there was such an entity... Apparently the missionary could not show them what he meant.

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muso

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Re: agnosticism vs atheism
Reply #48 - Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 10:18am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 9:55am:

muso wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 9:40am:

A person who doesn't believe in god(s) is an atheist regardless of what colour their hair is or anything else. Now to me, that's obvious.

Not intending, I presume, to mean that the subject is believing in non-existence, but that he is disbelieving/not subscribing to the assertion that god exists.

I was trying to make the point that "belief in existence" is not relevant to the term theist or atheist. I'm pretty sure that there are many Catholics who don't really believe that God exists, but God is relevant to their life. They are theists. They believe in God (through faith).

The Apostles Creed goes "I believe in God the Father Almighty...." It doesn't go "I believe that God the Father Almighty exists...."

Conversely an atheist does not believe in God. Forget the word 'exist'. What does it really mean anyway for something outside the physical universe?

It's all about belief, not belief in existence.

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There are few cultures that have not imagined a god, but one that I've heard of (an Amazonian tribe) have no theology at all. And when missionaries tried to teach them about god, they didn't believe there was such an entity... Apparently the missionary could not show them what he meant.

Exactly. I would define them as atheists. They don't believe in god. They are certainly not agnostics. For that, they must have some idea of the concept of god.

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« Last Edit: Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 10:26am by muso »

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: agnosticism vs atheism Reply #49 - Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 10:28am A.J. Ayer was a philosopher of renown and a steadfast atheist. In the end, his closest friend was Father Frederick Coplestone... more at http://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/roundtable/an-atheist-meets-the-maste...
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Soren

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Re: agnosticism vs atheism
Reply #50 - Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 10:34am

And the other bookend:

Consider the plight of clergy who have lost their faith. Give up the pulpit? Quit the congregation? For many clergy, these are tortured questions... more here
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/daniel_c_dennett/2010/03/sk...

The people at Arts & Letters Daily must be following our little discussion, as both of these articles were selected for today's sample.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: agnosticism vs atheism
Reply #51 - Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 11:03am

muso wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 10:18am:

I was trying to make the point that "belief in existence" is not relevant to the term theist or atheist. I'm pretty sure that there are many Catholics who don't really believe that God exists, but God is relevant to their life. They are theists. They believe in God (through faith).

The Apostles Creed goes "I believe in God the Father Almighty...." It doesn't go "I believe that God the Father Almighty exists...."

Sophistry. There is absolutely no doubt that Catholic Catechism and its inheritors (at least all but modern) Protestantism (and most definitely the fundamentalist species) taught and teaches that God the Father Almighty exists in fact. Ask a priest if the transubstantiation is actual or figurative. The meaning of that phrase has always been meant to state "I believe god is real", "I believe god exists".

Maybe you've been listening to Anglican/Episcopalian Bishops. Wink

muso wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 10:18am:

Conversely an atheist does not believe in God. Forget the word 'exist'. What does it really mean anyway for something outside the physical universe?

It's all about belief, not belief in existence.

Oh those Episcopalians.

muso wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 10:18am:

Quote:

There are few cultures that have not imagined a god, but one that I've heard of (an Amazonian tribe) have no theology at all. And when missionaries tried to teach them about god, they didn't believe there was such an entity... Apparently the missionary could not show them what he meant.

Exactly. I would define them as atheists. They don't believe in god. They are certainly not agnostics. For that, they must have some idea of the concept of god.

So would I. The disbelieved the proposition that god exists.

And that's not to say they have an irrational belief in non-existence.

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muso

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Re: agnosticism vs atheism
Reply #52 - Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 11:55am

Soren wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 10:34am:

And the other bookend:

Consider the plight of clergy who have lost their faith. Give up the pulpit? Quit the congregation? For many clergy, these are tortured questions... more here
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/daniel_c_dennett/2010/03/sk...

The people at Arts & Letters Daily must be following our little discussion, as both of these articles were selected for today's sample.

Yes. It's a very important issue. Now Helian, would you regard such people as atheists simply because they have lost their faith? If so, you'd have to include Mother Theresa and many others. Most Christians, even the most devout Christians lose their faith at one stage in their lives.

In many cases(but not all), that faith comes back, probably because "god" is still part of their lives. You don't have to believe that God exists to be a theist. Faith is not about existence or even about belief in existence. It's about belief, and belief is a personal thing.

Belief to a devout Christian means something different to what you imagine as an atheist.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: agnosticism vs atheism
Reply #53 - Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 12:13pm

muso wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 11:55am:

Yes. It's a very important issue. Now Helian, would you regard such people as atheists simply because they have lost their faith? If so, you'd have to include Mother Theresa and many others. Most Christians, even the most devout Christians lose their faith at one stage in their lives.

In many cases(but not all), that faith comes back, probably because "god" is still part of their lives. You don't have to believe that God exists to be a theist. Faith is not about existence or even about belief in existence. It's about belief, and belief is a personal thing.

Belief to a devout Christian means something different to what you imagine as an atheist.

Poor old Mother Theresa. She was ashamed of her doubt. But never once did she commit to disbelieving the existence of god, she just couldn't fathom why he had abandoned her. Tragically ironic, in a way, given that her order's theme is to live the sufferings of Christ on the cross, one of which was crystallised by his cry to the heavens, "Eli Eli Lama sabachthani?" - "My God, my god, why have you abandoned me?"... Be careful what you wish for.

For those who have decided that they disbelieve the proposition that god exists without any further inquiry to be had, yes, I would say they are atheists. If they embark on a journey to discover if they can know the god of faith without the need to commit to belief in his existence, then they are agnostic.

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« Last Edit: Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 9:38pm by NorthOfNorth »

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: agnosticism vs atheism Reply #54 - Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 2:28pm So can an idea exist?
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: agnosticism vs atheism Reply #55 - Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 5:15pm muso wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 2:28pm: So can an idea exist? Do you mean like the one that gave us the prohibition on pork consumption? And that's when the fight started...
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freediver

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Re: agnosticism vs atheism
Reply #56 - Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 9:20pm

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Sorry FD, but you're just banging an empty drum on this one. I'm not talking about agnosticism at all. You're just making the mistake of assuming "atheism" must necessarily have the same attributes as theism - namely a direct (non)-god object, which you think should be non-existence itself.

I never said anything about a 'non-God' object. That was your invention. I don't see how it helps your point.

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While we are doing funny, this link shows email exchanges between a school chaplain, and a parent, over permission to attend an easter play.

An easier to read version:

http://www.27bslash6.com/easter.html

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This demonstrates how futile the argument is. We can't even agree on a definition between the non-religious here.

Look at the thread title. That's why I separated it off. It shouldn't be too difficult to come up with an agreed definition. All it takes is commone sense, and not trying to define atheists out of existence to win an argument.

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He doesn't believe in god(s). End of story.

This does not distinguish the two groups.

Quote:

He believes that the perceived attributes of the god would result in predictable consequences as a result of the actions and perceptions of millions of people -in other words, god is a mass socio-psychological phenomenon.

That would make him a sociologist.

Quote:

There are few cultures that have not imagined a god, but one that I've heard of (an Amazonian tribe) have no theology at all. And when missionaries tried to teach them about god, they didn't believe there was such an entity... Apparently the missionary could not show them what he meant.

Interesting. Can you back this up?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: agnosticism vs atheism
Reply #57 - Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 9:32pm

freediver wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 9:20pm:

Quote:

Sorry FD, but you're just banging an empty drum on this one. I'm not talking about agnosticism at all. You're just making the mistake of assuming "atheism" must necessarily have the same attributes as theism - namely a direct (non)-god object, which you think should be non-existence itself.

I never said anything about a 'non-God' object.

Of course you did. Unfortunately you have a greater need to be right on this, than the humility needed to see that you're wrong.

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« Last Edit: Mar 24^th, 2010 at 7:03am by NorthOfNorth »

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Paella

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Re: agnosticism vs atheism
Reply #58 - Mar 24^th, 2010 at 12:11am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 12:13pm:

For those who have decided that they disbelieve the proposition that god exists without any further inquiry to be had, yes, I would say they are atheists.

What if you disbelieve the proposition that god exists, yet encourage further enquiry into god's existence?

As an atheist, I become that little bit more confident when each additional attempt to provide evidence of god's existence results in a conclusion of "do not reject null hypothesis".

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 12:13pm:

If they embark on a journey to discover if they can know the god of faith without the need to commit to belief in his existence, then they are agnostic.

No, they're freakin nutcases!

Personally, I liken the agnostic position to that of my dog when I call on him to debug one of my iPhone apps.

My dog is certainly correct when he reaches the conclusion that the task will always be beyond his capabilities. Whose to say agnostics aren't similarly correct?

Oh, and Freediver, give it away. You're done for.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: agnosticism vs atheism
Reply #59 - Mar 24^th, 2010 at 6:49am

Paella wrote on Mar 24^th, 2010 at 12:11am:

What if you disbelieve the proposition that god exists, yet encourage further enquiry into god's existence?

Then you're a closet agnostic...

Or a sadist.

Paella wrote on Mar 24^th, 2010 at 12:11am:

My dog is certainly correct when he reaches the conclusion that the task will always be beyond his capabilities. Whose to say agnostics aren't similarly correct?

Your dog can reach that conclusion?! That's one smart dog!

If you can get it to wear a top hat, carry a cane and tap dance, you've got yourself a roadshow.

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